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Bullet 4:34 Sat Feb 20
EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
BBC
Britain will vote on whether to remain in the EU on Thursday 23 June, Prime Minister David Cameron has said.
The prime minister made his historic announcement in Downing Street after briefing the cabinet.
He said he would be campaigning to remain in a reformed EU - and described the vote as one of the biggest decisions "in our lifetimes".
Ministers immediately divide

Replies - Newest Posts First (Show In Chronological Order)

threesixty 2:53 Fri Feb 22
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
ironsofcanada

"First, no amount of text changes that you did in fact lie."

Remind me again, what did I "knowingly" mislead you on? (for that is the definition of a lie right?)

"You still have not give me a good reason for Honda to lie. "

Your obsessed with the word "lie". I dont think Honda have "lied". I think they are being disingenuous perhaps. They are choosing not to mention all the things that have influenced their decision in my opinion. And if it were me, I would do the same. Is there any point in mentioning your ex's bad breath when you could just say we aren't mentally connected? This is politics after all. This how people communicate politically.

"Not sure you went off about the Guardian, they are biased and give op-eds to people not deserving of such a pulpit "

And no other newspaper does? Really... I must read the Martian times because every newspaper on earth has an ideology and bias that is pretty obvious. But they cant put words into people's mouths... so anything between quotes I suggest you pay attention.


" The Stockholm Syndrome thing is pretty disgustingly elitist. The only way it works as an analogy is under the premise that over half of the people that participated in a parliamentary-ratified vote have no agency in your mind. "

Ever heard of the phrase "it was the Sun that won it!" ?
You must think that Murdoch, Rothemere et al spend millions on these things called newspapers for fun! We are all being programmed and influenced every day. Who really has true agency under such circumstances?

I think its patronising to think that the media and big business are not doing their jobs in deflecting, persuading and programming the minds of the masses to do their bidding. I mean, they get paid enough!

You must think all these accusations about Facebook or Russian influence is a joke too. There is a great game being played. Lets not be naive to think Jack in Leeds who barely reads the label on a tin of beans had a complete understanding of the issues of the custom union, passporting or the good Friday agreement!


"Listen to yourself, how you know better than all those people what is best for their own lives. "

In the same way that if you open a book you know better about what's in it than someone who hasn't read it? Lets face it, the EU is a complicated beast and anyone would be forgiven for not knowing the intricacies of how its run (even David Davis our former Brexit secretary seemed clueless for some reason).

Theres no shame in saying you didn't know HOW this will play out. You might desire something but not know they want to sell one of your kidneys to get it.

What is ridiculous is when you do know the cost of something, is to double down and pay it knowing you actually cant afford it! That is when pride gets you. And when people who have told you how great you are, how much "agency" you have .. are just letting you walk the plank. Shame on them.,

The fact that parliament has any voting rights on this is not by design. May's government were taken to court by Gina Miller to make sure this happened. So your concept of how this "democratic" process is going is pretty rose tinted.

"Luckily, given your analogies require disenfranchising millions of people and stripping them of their agency, you only have one vote and an opinion on the internet."

Its almost as if you have forgotten there were over 16million people who also voted to remain. Plus many who were denied the right to vote and will be directly effected by this.

Civil wars were fought for less than this. 48% of the electorate is a lot of people to piss off, just as 52% is as well. Especially if the 48% start losing their jobs...

There is always two sides to the story.. especially with Brexit.

ironsofcanada 11:20 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Capitol Man 11:17 Thu Feb 21

No only those that have demonstrated on here in text that they are liars, like yourself and 360.

Capitol Man 11:17 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
ironsofcanada 11:05 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron

Ag ag ag. Anyone who disagrees with the snowflake is a "liar".

ironsofcanada 11:05 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
threesixty 10:14 Thu Feb 21

First, no amount of text changes that you did in fact lie. (and you were mistake and corrected before) Really calls everything you say into question, no matter how long you write. Especially if you cannot admit it. Would you not agree?

I said there was speculation on both side but the internal logic of them leaving for other reasons and the statement of the company is what I will go with. You still have not give me a good reason for Honda to lie.

Not sure you went off about the Guardian, they are biased and give op-eds to people not deserving of such a pulpit but I did not say they could not make informed speculations with the rest of us.

- The Stockholm Syndrome thing is pretty disgustingly elitist. The only way it works as an analogy is under the premise that over half of the people that participated in a parliamentary-ratified vote have no agency in your mind.

Their votes mean nothing, they did not approve the process; they were kidnapped into it.

Listen to yourself, how you know better than all those people what is best for their own lives. There are not agents unto themselves and need someone else to guide them for their own good. That is the seed of a lot of great authoritarians.

- All the democratic measures you talking of approved of the referendum and ratified it, multiple times. If we leave with no deal it is because there is law parliament put on the books that says we have to. If we get a deal, it will go through parliament.

You can talk about democratic history all you want but just because something happened that you did not want, does not mean this is not a part of it.

Luckily, given your analogies require disenfranchising millions of people and stripping them of their agency, you only have one vote and an opinion on the internet.

Dwight Van Mann 10:44 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
surely 360 should encourage Brexit - all those lovely potatoes they export to us they can fucking keep. Fucking love a spud the old micks.

BRANDED 10:40 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Fuck me you're boring zero

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 10:36 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
threesixty 10:24 Thu Feb 21

'Yeah .. because 1 in 10 billion odds on an asteriod hitting your house are the same odds as a no deal brexit.'

Er no.

The correct analogy is, the odds on getting hit by an asteroid =zero, getting threatened with death by the bloke next door = zero.

But you knew that.

Stupid cunt.

Willtell 10:27 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
360
What is actually needed is an Irishman with a fear of what will happen to Ireland to stop lying and mind his own business.

threesixty 10:24 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Surface

"It was a threat like - the earth might get struck by an asteroid causing the end of all life - the fact that you then move house because you are too skint to afford the mortgage is fuck all to do with that threat."

Yeah .. because 1 in 10 billion odds on an asteriod hitting your house are the same odds as a no deal brexit..

ffs... you need a drink. Bar man... drink for the slightly deluded pedant over there...

threesixty 10:22 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Willtell

"As I said earlier. Liars have no worth in discussions. You said you weren't Irish and didn't have any Irish relations and yet said you read the Honda story in the Irish Times!"

You know this internet thing.. its quite cool really..
You can google a story and click a link and it takes you to where the story came from. The other day I did it and it took me to the irish times ... fancy that!!

And it let me read the story despite not being Irish.. wow!

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 10:21 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21

As an economist Gav, what can you tell us about developments in the automobile market in the past couple of years?

threesixty 10:14 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
irons

Admittedly, you are of a different calibre to Surface in terms of reasoning. So I will offer my reply,

Everyone here is "speculating". No one knows anything for sure as by definition its impossible to know the future. All we can do it offer evidence to back up what we think might be happening or will happen in the future.

You can look at the Honda thing and isolate context and history and then say Honda's decision has nothing to do with Brexit. Or you can use history, context and to look at the statement they made.

It appears to me that you apply context and history when it suits your argument and remove them when it doesn't.

Multinational make statements all the time that offer a level ambiguity depending on what they need. Thats why lawyers are employed and they have press officers etc.. It would be stupid of us to take any multinational at its word without context and history. As I said a few days ago, it is folly to suggest that Brexit has no bearing on any moves any multi national makes in the Uk at this time. Especially a japanese motor firm who's sole reason for being here was access to Europe. I read that 90% of the cars the plant makes are sold to Europe.

So why do we go through this dance? Your an intelligent guy. Half the press is speculating just like me that there is more to Honda's decision. So my speculation is not some fringe idea. Even now the Guardian have uncovered evidence top suggest there is more to Honda's decision. And its folly for us to suggest that the Guardian cannot be trusted. They broke Windrush, the panama stories etc... They may have a bias, but no serious historian dismisses evidence on bias, simply because EVERYONE has a bias. You just take the evidence you have and balance it out with supporting or contrary reports.

Also, the stockholm syndrome comparison is completey appropriate.

Mentally, half the public has been captured by a group of politicians and business men. And no matter how much that group proposes to hurt them, they accept it. In fact they make excuses for their behaviour and want more of it! That is stockholm syndrome in its purest form. Sunderland voted out, even though they were told it would hurt them and it has, yet they will still vote leave if asked again. It is an illness really.

As for democracy. This is the worst of your claims.
I think it has to be brought to everyones attention that we rarely have referendums. In my 43 yrs this is the first one I have ever voted on.

Are we saying that our democracy and democratic process, something that has been honed here for centuries rests on the implementation of 1 referendum and not the countless elections, by-elections, laws and process that have ran this country for centuries? That if this wasn't honoured all democracy is dead here? Or that as long as they implement this rarirty of a vote, democracy is saved??

This is a joke. We have had governments lie, not carry out manifesto promises, u-turn, conceal, defraud etc.. since time immemorial, and we still keep it moving. I always wonder why the real democratic process that we are all used to, parliamentary procedure is suddenly been relegated and this way of doing things is the be all and all of democratic reasoning.

Its all bollocks really. I'm not buying any of it. We have been taken for a ride by elements of the conservative party who have been fighting with themselves on Europe for decades. The Ukipization of the party made Cameron make a gamble to sort it out and thats why we are here. For no other reason. Ignorance is bliss and if Cameron hadnt pushed for it most of the country would have given a shit.

If we took capital punishment and made it into a referendum we would be hanging people by the end of the week. We know how humans behave. We know the power of "the people". It doesnt really end up nice. Rarely does. We need process, experts, reasoning etc.. not this basket case populist crap that is flooding Europe.

TLDR:

I dont agree. Everyones talking shit! :-)

Lee Trundle 10:14 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
That's a proper WIBBLE.

Johnson 10:12 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
You alright there Gavvy?

orwells tragedy 10:11 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
"Like, my neighbour "threatening" to kill me on my doorstep has nothing to do with my sudden requirement not sell my house and stay in a hotel somewhere."

Tells me all i need to know

Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Its just a coincidence that Honda, JLR, Nissan and Ford have or have warned of plant closures in the past year. A total, total, coincidence.

Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Its just a coincidence that Honda, JLR, Nissan and Ford have or have warned of plant closures in the past year. A total, total, coincidence.

Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Its just a coincidence that Honda, JLR, Nissan and Ford have or have warned of plant closures in the past year. A total, total, coincidence.

Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Its just a coincidence that Honda, JLR, Nissan and Ford have or have warned of plant closures in the past year. A total, total, coincidence.

Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Its just a coincidence that Honda, JLR, Nissan and Ford have or have warned of plant closures in the past year. A total, total, coincidence.

Gavros 10:09 Thu Feb 21
Re: EU Referendum 23rd June 2016 declares Cameron
Its just a coincidence that Honda, JLR, Nissan and Ford have or have warned of plant closures in the past year. A total, total, coincidence.

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