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Eerie Descent 1:06 Tue Jul 23
The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Test Fixtures:

August

1-5 - 1st Test, Edgbaston (11:00 BST)

14-18 - 2nd Test, Lord's (11:00 BST)

22-26 - 3rd Test, Headingley (11:00 BST)

September

4-8 - 4th Test, Old Trafford (11:00 BST)

12-16 - 5th Test, The Oval (11:00 BST)

COME ON ENGLAND

Replies - Newest Posts First (Show In Chronological Order)

southbankbornnbred 12:03 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Eoin Morgan, World Cup Final, Archer is bowling the "super over". He gets walloped for a six early in the over and Morgan is standing at point (I think, it was somewhere like that).

He realises that Archer needs some advice and some calming down, so Morgan holds up the game and moves himself to mid-on, where he can talk his bowler through the rest of the over.

No more sixes follow.

Good, pro-active captaincy.

You will never see that from Root.

Far Cough 12:03 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Brearley should be the benchmark for captains

Eerie Descent 12:00 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Yep, a sure fire way to judge all our batsmen, that.

Up until the last Test, 28 over 18 months. Blinding 👌

southbankbornnbred 11:59 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Westie - you're right about the captain not having a huge influence over the way the team will bat (once the side is selected and instructed) with that fragile top order.

But the skipper's value is on the flip side of that coin (excuse the pun): it's about when England are in the field. That's where a good skipper earns his corn - even in the modern era. Williamson is probably the best example right now. He makes New Zealand more than the sum of their parts - and that's probably the biggest achievement in captaincy.

Westside 11:57 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
What else did you find in that barrel?

That over their test careers, Stokes has a better strike rate than Woakes, albeit at a marginally higher average.

southbankbornnbred 11:53 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Actually, I'm being a tad unfair. Joe Root does show good judgement on review calls.

I will give him that. Captain's job - and he does that well.

southbankbornnbred 11:50 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
I'll give you another example - I knew EXACTLY when Root was going to turn to Jofra again last night.

You can check down this thread. I knew it would get to 5.30pm, almost to the second, and Root would call for Archer. And, lo and behold, that's exactly what he did.

You can read Root's mind. And if a cynical old bastard like me can read it, then you can bet your bottom dollar that good professional opposition cricketers can read it.

He clearly sticks rigidly to that plan hatched with Bayliss in the dressing room. Too rigidly, because he is unable to think on his feet when things go wrong. He'll have had a discussion with Bayliss about when Archer would be ready for another stint - and the answer would have come back from the fitness advisers and Bayliss "around 5.30".

5.30, almost to the second, Archer is thrown the ball.

He's too predictable and too rigid. He just waits for things to happen. I've never once seen Joe Root make something happen as a captain.

Eerie Descent 11:45 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
It's good that the argument comes down to 1 innings over an 18 month period when judging one of our batsmen against a number 8, and now comparing their bowling in 1 Test.

What else did you find in that barrel?

Westside 11:44 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
But when the bowling got untidy - as it did for a good hour and a half - Root did nothing to stop the problem.

Agreed. But if something drifts for that long, the coach should be getting involved.

I'm not defending Root, but just wonder in this day and age,of plans and analysis, how much difference a quality captain would make to England's results.

When you have a batting line up as fragile as ours, not sure Mike Brearley in his prime, would have got much better results in the same games as Root.

southbankbornnbred 11:39 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Westie - yep, agreed. But the good skipper is the one who brings that fielder in mid-wicket forward or back five meters depending on how the pitch is playing when the action starts.

It's one thing for the coaches and tacticians to do their job from the stands, quite another to be in the middle making all of the many smaller decisions that can make a huge difference.

An example yesterday would be when Root stayed with four slips even when the runs were flowing for Australia. The coaches and he had obviously worked out that they wanted four slips for Warner when attacking - and that was therefore England's "Warner Plan".

But when the bowling got untidy - as it did for a good hour and a half - Root did nothing to stop the problem. Bowling to four slips was fine as "Warner Plan" when the bowling was disciplined - but he needed to make changes when Woakes and Stokes struggled, and he did not.

That's what I mean when I say that Root just lets things drift for too long. He has a plan - like you say, all teams have a plan. But he isn't savvy enough as a captain to know when to go off script for the benefit of his team. Good captains react to the match conditions.

Westside 11:39 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Did Woakes edge 20 chest height catchable chances in his century?

Don't know. Couldn't are less.

Doesn't matter how you get the runs,as long as you get them.

If you want to talk current form, Stokes has as many wickets as Woakes, in this test. From fewer overs

Eerie Descent 11:33 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Did Woakes edge 20 chest height catchable chances in his century?

JustAFatKevinDavies 11:32 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Westside 11:23 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
and take Woakes's test century out of the numbers for the last 18 months and he averages under 26. Fact.


not really how averages work is it?

Westside 11:31 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
All of that is true Southbank, but teams have plans for every batsmen these days. Should be aware of the uppish drive through mid wicket in your example. The coaching staff should brief the captain properly.

Do agree that subtle captaincy changes on the field are needed outside the plans. Especially managing the bowlers. Something Root doesn't seem able to do.

Are England better with Root as captain than before? No in my opinion. The downturn in his batting, outweighs anything he may bring to the game, in the England team managements' eyes.

Of course no proof captaincy is making his batting worse, could be coincidence, but I don't think so.

southbankbornnbred 11:29 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
I remember Matthew Hayden talking about the 2005 Ashes series. He said that Vaughan had really done his homework on Australia's batsman and was so adept at moving his field to apply pressure that the Aussie top order felt like the England fielders were crowding them at times.

southbankbornnbred 11:25 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
Don't get me wrong - it's not easy and it comes from years of trial and error on county grounds. It's why Gooch was such a good skipper - he'd been in almost every situation with Essex and knew how to get the best out of a poor set of players (for England).

That's why I like a captain who has some experience.

Westside 11:23 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
and take Woakes's test century out of the numbers for the last 18 months and he averages under 26. Fact.

And, as I said, Stokes batted well in the world cup. He seems to have got his head screwed back on, once he was acquitted of the spurious affray charge.

southbankbornnbred 11:21 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
It's more than just the coach saying "try Plan B or C", though Westie.

The real art of captaincy is to have a damn good idea of what works and fails in most situations, and against different kinds of threats/opponents. It's an over-by-over, sometimes ball-by-ball knowledge.

As one example (it's just one), it's like knowing through experience that a particular batsman is uppish when he drives through straight mid-wicket, and putting a fielder in the exact area where the batsman tends to be uppish to stem his flow of runs and apply pressure. But it's also about knowing those fielding distances for each batsman on each pitch. If you have done your homework, and have the experience of what works and fails, a good captain (like Vaughan and Hussein were) will gradually turn off the flow of runs by each individual batsman, which leads to the pressure to do something different. That's when mistakes get made by the opposition.

That's the value of a good, proactive skipper. Or one example of it.

Kane Williamson did all of this very well during the world cup. Watch how he set his fields and just turned off the taps - even with England's free-scoring top order.

That really only comes from experience as a captain - or just an innate understanding of that side of the game.

Root is not a proactive skipper and he doesn't seem to react at all to how situations develop on the pitch. He just waits for one of his talented players to step up and deliver - as with Broad and Archer yesterday.

Eerie Descent 11:19 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
England have to identify a captain to bring in, no one in the team is capable, and it should never be a bowler.

This is such a huge Test for Root. If we lose, his record in Ashes will be P8 W0 D2 L6

I don't see how he carries on after that.

Eerie Descent 11:14 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
How is comparing two players over the same number of most recent tests they've [played cherry picking?


Woakes didn't bat in that 2nd innings at Edgbaston, but you are basing your whole argument on that 1 innings by Stokes, against a player who bats number 8 for England! Fuck me that's scraping the barrel. Fair enough.

Before that 115no, he averaged 28 with the bat over 18 months. Fact.

southbankbornnbred 11:09 Fri Aug 23
Re: The Ashes 2019 - Official Thread
We're not flush with captaincy candidates.

Counties are now often led by players who will not be an England selection candidate - purely because they won't be on a central contract and miss key games (for their county).

It means the England test side lack grizzled leaders who have learned the trade through trial and error on crap pitches all over the country.

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