WHO Poll
Q: 2020/2021 Where will we finish up this season?
a. Top Four, Champions League here we come
8%
  
b. 5th-7th Europa League is well within our grasp
4%
  
c. 8th to 14th anywhere in mid table is about right
25%
  
d. We're in a dog fight before a ball has been kicked and we'll do well to finish 17th or just above
31%
  
e. GSB have derailed our season before a ball has been kicked, the Championship beckons
33%
  



Sven Roeder 12:35 Sun Jul 5
David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Article in the Observer by Jonathan Wilson

The Hammers may survive this season but the prospects for the next one do not look good – just ask fans of the Wearside club now in League One

Perhaps this time the Ferryman will not accept the fare. Wednesday’s unlikely victory over Chelsea, allied to the abjection of Norwich and Bournemouth and the struggles of Aston Villa and Watford, means West Ham may survive this season, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t major questions for the club to answer, foremost among them who should be their manager.

Wednesday’s Premier League game turned out to be a clash of two managerial flaws, the inability of Frank Lampard sides to defend set‑pieces or counterattacks winning out over the tendency of David Moyes sides to drop deeper and deeper, particularly when they have something to defend. The victory may end up being decisive, but there can be no long-lasting sense of wellbeing.

Since Moyes’s return to the club at the end of last year, West Ham have picked up 11 points from 13 games. To point out the club are badly run is true, but the return of Moyes after the dalliance with Manuel Pellegrini is a part of that.

In their penultimate game of the 2015-16 season, Sunderland beat Everton 3-0 to seal yet another great escape. It was their last great night. Sam Allardyce danced on the pitch, downed two bottles of lager during his press conference and carried on drinking with the club legend Jim Montgomery in the bar at the nearby Hilton Garden Inn.

Sunderland ended that season with a run of 11 games when they lost once, but, more than that, three of Allardyce’s January signings – Lamine Koné, Jan Kirchhoff and Wahbi Khazri – had made an impact and there was, for the first time in a long time, a sense Sunderland had not only survived but also had a clear vision of where they were going.

Four months later, Sunderland played Everton at home again, in their fourth game of the new season. This time they lost 3-0 and the mood couldn’t have been more different. Khazri had been sidelined. Koné, who had scored twice in the May game and had been well on the way to cult status, played in a fug of disillusionment. Papy Djilobodji and Didier Ndong had inexplicably been signed; Yann M’Vila, despite an impressive year on loan, inexplicably hadn’t.

Nobody paid a bigger price for England’s collapse against Iceland in the Euros than Sunderland. Allardyce had already been chuntering about a lack of transfer funds when Roy Hodgson was ousted, but he was never going to turn the England job down. So Sunderland turned to Moyes.

The line between realism and negativity is fine, but Moyes very quickly slipped to the wrong side of it. Before the Everton defeat, he gave an extraordinarily pessimistic interview. Not unreasonably, fans asked what had changed since the last time they had played Everton, how a boisterous 3-0 win had in four months become a dismal 3-0 defeat. From a Sunderland point of view, the difference was Moyes.

That October, Sunderland went to the London Stadium. It was a miserable scrap but Sunderland were holding out and threatening sporadically when Moyes took off Steven Pienaar for Paddy McNair. From nowhere a siege was generated and, with a grim inevitability, Winston Reid banged in an injury-time winner. It was the fourth goal Sunderland had conceded after the 85th minute in nine games, squandering five points they couldn’t afford. The probability of relegation became a near-certainty.

The pattern will be familiar to West Ham this season, in the leads lost against Liverpool and, more damagingly, Brighton. Against Chelsea, they were 2-1 up when Moyes brought on Jack Wilshere for Manuel Lanzini. They conceded four minutes later. The introduction of Andriy Yarmolenko turned one point back into three but if every game Moyes had been in charge of this season had ended at the moment he made his first tactical substitution, West Ham would be six points better off.

It may be the issue is less the changes themselves than fitness (a reminder of his reported disagreements with Phil Neville over conditioning even in his days at Everton) and that perhaps also explains the tendency to drop back, but that again is Moyes’s responsibility.
That there were deep-rooted problems of finance, personnel and culture at Sunderland is undeniable. There has been a consequent tendency to absolve Moyes, to regard the club as having been essentially unmanageable – a theory the high turnover of coaches tends to support. But it wasn’t Roy Keane, Ricky Sbragia, Steve Bruce, Martin O’Neill, Paolo Di Canio, Gus Poyet, Dick Advocaat or Allardyce who took Sunderland down: it was Moyes – and he was the only one who took over with the club on an apparent upswing.

It may be that his confidence has never recovered from his failure at Manchester United, although that looks less damning in hindsight. But there’s a more fundamental issue than that, in what he represents and how that tallies with West Ham’s image of themselves.

They have a recent habit of ambitious signings, as befits a club looking to build on the advantages of moving to a large – if deeply unpopular – stadium. Some have been experienced players looking to re-establish themselves – Wilshere, Samir Nasri; some have arrived from major foreign clubs – Yarmolenko, Felipe Anderson; some are promising players looking to take a step up – Sébastien Haller, Pablo Fornals.

However, the problem when you buy above yourself is that those categories of players will generally not have patience. If things look like they’re not working out, they’ll understandably be wanting to move on before they get dragged down with the club.

Is Moyes, with his conservatism, his old-fashioned retreats to the bunker to protect a lead, really the manager to get the best out of that tier of player? Perhaps not surprisingly the players who have done well under him, those such as Michail Antonio and Jarrod Bowen, have had a grounding in the English lower leagues.

In the long-term, though, a club cannot function with divergent camps of grafters and sophisticates. Charon may not lead West Ham to the Championship this season, but the boat is pointing in one direction.

Replies - Newest Posts First (Show In Chronological Order)

VickyPkVillageIdiot 2:56 Mon Jul 6
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Sunderland should never have gotten rid of Ricky SBRAGIA.

El Scorchio 2:53 Mon Jul 6
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Sunderland's problems went far deeper than 'just' the manager.

That club was utterly dysfunctional as you can plainly see from the two seasons of that netflix doc.

As well as Moyes, I've no idea what Chris Coleman was thinking when he took the job there. His stock was so high after his time with Wales, and then he went there and killed his career. I guess managers always back themselves to do a job but often don't find out the full extent of the rot until they start the job.

Not that this is to say Moyes did a good job, but to blame Sunderland's situation on him is silly.

Woodford Green 2:46 Mon Jul 6
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
RBshorty 8:10 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Seeing Wilson is a Sunderland fan. This was always going to be a hatchet job. Modern day journalism has gone to shit.

Given the timing of the release of this article the cynic in me says that this was a deliberate attempt to unsettle Moyes and the team just when it looked like we might have turned a corner.

I'm with twoleftfeet on this. Whilst I was underwhelmed by his reappointment, his time at Sunderland is no yardstick for how things will pan out at WH.
.

geoffpikey 8:25 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
"every manager that went there failed"

Some failed more than others!?

RBshorty 8:10 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Seeing Wilson is a Sunderland fan. This was always going to be a hatchet job. Modern day journalism has gone to shit.

Tomshardware 8:09 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
What a load of twaddle.

VirginiaHam 7:47 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
I think this article is harsh, but what is Moyes going to do for the next season?

Sven Roeder 7:44 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
As pointed out in the article a whole bunch of managers went there to rescue them but it was Moyes that relegated them.
And he was the one that took over when they were on a rare uplift after Allardyce had done well and then taken the England job.

goose 6:49 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
but if every game Moyes had been in charge of this season had ended at the moment he made his first tactical substitution, West Ham would be six points better off.


THIS

gph 6:49 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Moyes' biggest mistake at Sunderland was taking the job in the first place.

That said, the fact that he didn't say "I'm not touching that with a bargepole" does reflect on his judgment.

twoleftfeet 6:48 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
I'm no Moyes lover but this is bullshit.

Sunderland were in freefall and every manager that went there failed.

He doesn't bother me as much as he does some of you so if we survive give him a full season.

marty feldman 6:43 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Moyes has better players here . than he had at sunderland .

theaxeman 2:22 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Depressing article that probably the majority agree with, unfortunately those who can change it think Moyes is the second coming.

Vexed 2:15 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
The article broken down to save time:

Moyes is shit and negative and will take the club down, if not this season, next.

You're fucking welcome.

El Scorchio 1:53 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
wd40- you think this site rates Moyes? That’s ridiculous. There are probably a handful of posters but the vast majority do not.

El Scorchio 1:52 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Players, whatever their level, also have to take their responsibility. Anderson has been playing like a coward long before Moyes even got here. Other players have also been woefully underperforming throughout the reign of the big name manager we had beforehand as well.

So it’s not like it’s just under Moyes that players have not been performing.

wd40 1:46 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
But but .. by this site he has credit.

Sven Roeder 1:44 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
I didn’t take that as a criticism
Just that if you are going to try and buy players to improve the squad and aim for the NEXT LEVEL you need a manager who has the ambition tactically to take those players on.

El Scorchio 1:39 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
That comment about ‘buying above yourself’ really bothers me.

Like we should leave all the good players exclusively for the top 6 and just buy shit like Hugill.

Don’t want to rock the boat and try to have any aspirations....

Besides which aside from Payet arguably, no-one we have signed in the last five years at least as anything like the air of ‘this player is too good to be here’ about them.

Sven Roeder 1:33 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
I guess the length is because the column is given the whole back page of the Observer sports section.
The rest is filled by a picture of a Sunderland fan with a David Moyes mask on. The mask has CLUELESS scrawled across the forehead

Syd Puddefoot 1:09 Sun Jul 5
Re: David Moyes's sorry Sunderland saga bodes ill for West Ham
Depressing stuff, thanks for brightening my Sunday.

To those that make it to the end of the article but like myself are not well versed in Greek mythology i will save you the trouble.

Charon - from wikipedia:
In Greek and Roman mythology, Charon is a psychopomp, the ferryman of Hades who carries souls of the newly deceased across the rivers Styx and Acheron that divided the world of the living from the world of the dead.

Moyes even looks like he would fit the bill for that job!

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