WHO Poll
Q: 2022/23 You are the Chairman what do you do with Moyes?
a. Stick with him obviously, he's delivered two good seasons back to back and will see us out of this dip in form
21%
  
b. If we're still lingering around the bottom three by the start of the WC then that's the time to get rid
38%
  
c. What are we waiting for 2 wins in the last 20 PL games is reason enough to sack him, go now
36%
  
d. I've just got my new Orange & White 3rd Kit with Moyesinho on the back, I can't wait to wear it down to the supermarket, they call me Mr West Ham around here
5%
  



northbankboy68 12:11 Wed Oct 27
Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Influence of the unknowable may be only lesson from Moyes’s success at West Ham
Jonathan Liew
Moyes’s second spell at the London Stadium is confounding popular sentiment at the time of his appointment and possibly his own expectations, but wider lessons are hard to come by
Published:22:00 Mon 25 October 2021
Follow Jonathan Liew

‘Perhaps one of the reasons David Moyes’s success has flown under the radar a little is that to analyse it would mean analysing how so many of us got it wrong in late 2019.’ Photograph: Eddie Keogh/Getty Images
“The game has changed immeasurably in the two decades since Moyes first started,” an idiot wrote in these pages two years ago. “And so in he shuffles, a man who neither improves teams nor greatly degrades them but will simply be there, right until he isn’t. He won’t take you in the wrong direction because he doesn’t take you in any direction.”

As West Ham United sit fourth in the Premier League after a stirring cultural revolution that has transformed the club’s psyche and taken them into Europe, it turns out that one of us had been elevated to a position for which he was grotesquely and demonstrably unqualified, but it wasn’t David Moyes.


Still, you live and learn, although at first glance it is not immediately clear exactly what learnings we should take from Moyes’s second spell at West Ham, a resounding success that has defied not just the bulk of popular sentiment but possibly even Moyes’s own expectations. Was it proof that he was a good manager all along? That a career path which had taken him from Manchester United to Real Sociedad to Sunderland to West Ham to West Ham again was all somehow an illusion? Or is something more subtle and complex happening here?

Certainly it is worth remembering that in this business you are never more than half a dozen wins away from being hailed as a genius nor half a dozen defeats from being lampooned as a moron. Should West Ham fall away and finish ninth, then it is guaranteed the very same qualities for which Moyes is currently being lauded will become flaws: his tactical discipline, his down-to-earth demeanour, his squad rotation in Europa League weeks. This is, to a large extent, the nature of football’s patellar reflex.

But the curious thing about many of the judgments on Moyes’s career was that they were anything but knee-jerk. Since getting the United job in 2013 from a legend who recommended him, this was a trajectory that was seemingly headed in only one direction. Even if you still rated Moyes as a coach – and many always have – returning to West Ham and its potty ownership 19 months after his services were deemed surplus to requirements felt like an act of pure desperation on all sides. We had all seen this film before and it invariably ended in a calamitous 3-0 defeat at Burnley and leaked stories about how disgruntled players were fuming at Moyes’s decision to ban mayonnaise from the canteen.

This has to be the starting point for any dispassionate evaluation of Moyes’s work at West Ham: everyone seemingly knew how this would end. And so perhaps one of the reasons his success has flown under the radar is that to analyse it in any great detail would also mean analysing how so many of us got it wrong. Indeed, it would probably involve recalibrating the whole discourse around how we rate managers and why, and junking many of the preconceived ideas we have about why managers succeed and fail.

Central to this is the tyranny of the “X, Y and Z” feature. You are probably familiar with the format. “Eating meals together, daytime naps and Murderball: how Marcelo Bielsa transformed Leeds United”. “Bikram yoga, Flaubert and reruns of Colombo: inside Scott Parker’s Bournemouth revolution”. “Googling himself at 4am, weeping dressing-room laments on the savagery of man, playing Matt Ritchie at full-back: where it all went wrong for Steve Bruce at Newcastle”. This stuff is everywhere and in its reduction of coaching to simple, catchy tropes it encourages us to see the manager in the same way we view a household cleaning product: a mix of miracle compounds that either works or doesn’t.

You could easily reverse-engineer the same sort of narrative around Moyes. He has tried to make training sessions more enjoyable. His work as a Uefa technical observer has kept him abreast of tactical trends. His relentless focus on set pieces has turned West Ham into one of the leading Premier League sides in that aspect of the game. All of this may explain part of the whole but they barely scratch at the whole itself: the boring, incremental, unscientific day-to-day work of improving players, drilling their roles, cohering the various parts of a club into a cogent, happy unit.

And here’s the rub: for all our love of extrapolation, none of this necessarily means very much beyond itself. It doesn’t mean United should have given him more time, it doesn’t mean West Ham were wrong to let him go in 2018, it doesn’t mean he deserves another crack at a Champions League club. Thomas Tuchel can simultaneously have been the wrong man for Borussia Dortmund in 2017 and the right man for Chelsea now. The lesson, surely, is that management is one part aptitude to two parts happenstance: some unknowable brew of timing and sentiment, synergy and macroeconomics, the wind at your back and the squad at your disposal.

The point is that so much of football is about picking the empirical out of the contextual, when all the available evidence suggests that it is basically impossible. All we can really say for certain is that after spending half a decade as a walking punchline, a likable and hard-working manager is finally enjoying some good times. And you know what? For now, maybe that’s enough.

Replies - Newest Posts First (Show In Chronological Order)

Alex G 6:22 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
If people haven't read Liew's original (and utterly terrible with hindsight) analysis of Moyes' chances of success at West Ham then this it is worth a good read:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/dec/31/david-moyes-west-ham-manager-old-new

Like any job, luck does play a part... a simple example in football is injuries or the like derailing key players. A good example would be that until Fabianski's injury Pellegrini was doing a fairly decent job for us (although he has to take the blame for having Jimenez as reserve).

What can't be denied though is that Moyes has set up a fantastic ethos around the club and brought in players that fit his vision of the club. And those that don't (Anderson and Haller I'm looking at you) have been promptly shown the door.

Why has it worked out for Moyes here (and previously Everton) but not at Manchester United and Sunderland? I'd argue that he did inherit a good core of players here that wanted to improve and do well, whereas at Manchester United he got a core of players on the wane who were coasting through their careers whilst Sunderland seemed to be a highly toxic environment.

threesixty 3:11 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Branded

"I think its hard to predict what teams might do bellow Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea at the moment. "

then why do journalists bother?
Anyone can predict that the 4 richest clubs will end up in the top places. Its hardly rocket science.

I thought that football experts knew all the stuff that made their insights into the "best of the rest" meaningful? Now Liew is just saying its basically bingo...

Normally dont see a professional journalist indicate that he actually doesnt know anything more than anyone else about his profession.
Even if he's really using the article to say Moyes is an anomaly and I'm generally right so please fuck off.

I honestly think this why so many of them dont want to talk about anyone beyond the top 6. They just cant be bothered to do the research required to make an informed opinion beyond the top 6 teams.

BRANDED 12:18 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
I think its hard to predict what teams might do bellow Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea at the moment. Some will under perform and some will over perform. Those that over perform generally move back to their place in the end as their best players move on or the other teams work them out.
In the end money will define the list.

, 12:04 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Coffee 6.49, I beg to differ because it’s a so called apology loaded with caveats, remarking on happenstance, meant to be read by the gullible as anyone can make a mistake.

By virtue of him being a sports journalist specialising on football he poses as and wants to held as knowing what he writes about. The reality is different.

If Liew wrote that missive as a mea culpa then he should have apologised, without beating about the bush, for his journalism in general and not just his judgement about Moyes.

PastyTime 11:14 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
I think it was this journo, or certainly another similar one on the Guardian podcast, that was mocking and writing off Nuno at Spurs. Of course I want Spurs to fuck up, but he's been in post for nine bloody league games and they are in 6th. As other posters have said, the cunty media are to blame for the short term-ism - writing people off so quickly.

zebthecat 10:53 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Sarge 9:41 Wed Oct 27

His writing is always like that.
He expounds his latest theory and adds a fence-sitting get out at some point.

White Pony 10:45 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
What a steaming pile of shit that article is.

Side of Ham 10:43 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
These journalists, media & the PL themselves are making football the predictable cunt it is. Always knocking an individual who tries to make progress on average PL budgets and swoons over people who spend their unlimited budgets well when it’s the far easier of the two.
If they are half decent and get the ‘star players’onside they can even balance the books…….wow.

They are just brand promoters and the silly money spent by the top clubs helps them set out their stalls easily.

They are lazy sheep……no better than your average fickle fan.

Sven Roeder 9:41 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Used to see Liew on that Sunday morning Sky show with a group of journos (before they cancelled it for the show hosted by Vicky Gommersall with one black journo and another pundit) and he was always sneering and dismissive of West Ham and Moyes as yesterdays man.
He admits he was wrong to stereotype in a SORRY, NOT SORRY sort of way here but then suggests noone knows nothing and freak things (ie West Ham winning , Moyes doing a great job) can happen for no real reason.
If things turn he will be ready with his I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG article.

Sarge 9:41 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
JL covered the game on sunday.

He made a reference to Moyesball, inferred that we were just a set piece team - and that the limited but effective performances were exactly what Moyes is aiming for

A number of people - me included- referred back to the authors hatchet job on Moyes on his re-appointment.

I wrote
'Jonathan - Moyesball? Really??

can you post a link to your article on Moyes from new years day last year? I think what gives David the warmest, tingliest feeling is looking at the league table- reading your 1/1/20 hatchet job on hin - and looking at the league table again.

A link to said article wouldnt go amiss."

Here's the link to the initial article posted by a few in reply.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2019/dec/31/david-moyes-west-ham-manager-old-new

This came out just before we hit 4 past Bournemouth

His latest article strikes me as an attempt to say sorry - but gives him wriggle room to have another pop.

I dont like it.

Coffee 8:57 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Nagel, same with Alex Ferguson in his early days at Man U.

Nagel 7:31 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
The only happenstance involved is actually the lockdown. On his return Moyes had got us 8 points from his first 12 games. If we'd carried on like that we'd have been relegated for sure. Luckily the lockdown gave him what amounted to an extra pre-season in which to get his methods across to the players, and he got us 12 points from the last 7 games.

Even then he only managed 1 point more than Pellegrini had in the same number of games that season, so if it wasn't for that late season form being so good then even if we had managed to stay up by he probably would have been sacked and I doubt many would have objected.

Coffee 6:49 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Excellent article even if both writers seem to be reserving the right to change their minds again and then say 'I told you so.'


, 2:10 Wed Oct 27

You're being a little unfair to Lieuw. He does, perhaps rightly, call himself an idiot. But he's no more an idiot than anyone else opining on the game. To get something wrong while having the guts to put your view in the public domain is the mark of a human being, not of an idiot.

Darby_ 5:58 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
I must be one of the few people on here who always though that Moyes was a great manager. You just have to look at how Everton’s seasons before he joined compared to after he joined. Then look at the small amount of money he spent compared to his rivals. It was exactly what SAF had done in Scotland before he got the job at Man Utd: make a relatively small team punch above its weight season after season after season.

Sometimes even good mangers struggle, though, as SAF did in the early 90s. Moyes’ time in the wilderness was after he was unfairly sacked from Man Utd. He wasn’t given time to rebuild an ageing Man Utd squad. It had to be immediate results or the sack. After Man Utd he joined struggling clubs, but times had changed. Managers weren’t given time to turn a club around any more.

A lot of hacks like this one have bought into that sort of short-termism. If a manager has a bad start to the season, he’s obviously a failure, so sack him. Ranieri wins the Premier League with Leicester? He’s a genius. He has a bad start to the next season? He’s obviously useless, sack him.

RBshorty 3:09 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
Fregie could see Moyes had the chops to make a successful team. However. Moyes wasn’t given the time by the fans or the media. And more importantly the carte blanche by the board that Ferguson was afforded. So his was undermined every step of the way by twats in the squad like Mr ManU Rio. Which in the long run has benefited us.(May the best thing Rio done for us.)?

Westham67 2:59 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
It was the 1990 FA cup final replay against Palace that saved Fergusons job

Capitol Man 2:46 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
It’s a very thin line between success and failure. Ferguson was a game or two for the sack and then I think had a good cup run that saved him.

I think Wenger was lucky to inherit the back four essentially fro Graham and then players like Bergkamp from Bruce Ricoh - but a very good manager to sustain it over the years.

It’s pretty clear that not every manger is going to thrive at every club or situation they come into, especially seeing they generally aren’t going to get much time to get it right.

BRANDED 2:18 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
The things that help are money, support, belief, luck, hard work and a bit mire luck. David Moyes wants honest hard working pros. Here here.

, 2:10 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
The article is written as if on a few occasions football journalists get things wrong and that is their excuse for their views regarding Moyes. The reality is different because the rare thing is for a football journalist to get something right.

It is well known within the game that Moyes is a good and effective manager if given time. The ability of a manager to consistently get performances out of his team that exceeds the capabilities of the constituent parts is when he can be called good. Moyes did just that at Everton and as long as the playing resources he needs are at his disposal that is what he will do for us.

Liew like most hacks is not in or of the game he is peripheral to it, living off it, taking advantage of football’s massive following to carve out a living telling us a mixture of the blindingly obvious leavened with, as he admits, lots of wrong opinions. Liew is not alone of course he is simply at the base of a pyramid of journalistic mediocrity that helps support a pinnacle that has included people like Henry Winter.

I take issue with the idea that West Ham are flying under the radar. Any football fan worth his salt knows how teams are performing it’s not radar it’s being outside of where the media sharply focuses that we are. In essence the media is besotted by several teams and tries to pay as little attention as possible to the rest. Then when they realise something else is going on they come up with patronising articles like Liew’s and have the brass neck to put it down to happenstance.

So here’s the thing Liew, you got it wrong, missed the trick etc not because of serendipity but actually, and in common with fellow hacks, you’re not very good at your jobs.

threesixty 2:06 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
I read the article this morning and think that it is a back handed compliment really.
To sum up, it feels like he is saying he wasn't wrong about Moyes and what we are seeing is an anomaly based on Moyes being essentially lucky. And we can't quantify luck, so that's that.

The journalists at the Guardian spend most of their lives talking about other successful managers like they were "precision engines". They generally spend thousands of words purring over their tactical nous etc.. but when it comes to Moyes it's essentially just luck isn't it?

Feels like pure ego driven journalism in my opinion.

The fact that we can't determine "why" something works does not mean there is no method or logic involved. It just means we don't understand it. In football you can have a few lucky games, but not 38 of them!

One thing I find interesting with pundits and fans is that once they see something happen once or twice, its generally set in stone for them. If you failed before you can never be great (or if you weren't a striker as a 15yr old you simply can't be one now even if your banging them in!). Since it's rare that anyone gives you more chances in this game, its usually a mindset that ends up looking correct.

However the business world stateside they generally think that failure is essential to learn how to be great. You can't be great unless you have failed in their mind. Perhaps that's what we are seeing with Moyes. Someone who has learnt lessons through failing and is applying them. The nature of the beast is that we rarely see second chances in this industry. Which is why Mr Liew can't fathom what the hell is going on at our club...

Capitol Man 1:12 Wed Oct 27
Re: Tuesday Newspapers - Moyes Article from Guardian Added
I think there is always a degree of happenstance in a manager’s success. The right club ownership, existing squad.

If you go back a few years where the field was more level financial and mangers had more time it was easier to judge.

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