West Ham Online

"""The writing is on the wall"" https://www.facebook.com/valdinn66617 IRONS"

"Pickle, you are probably the most religious person on here."

"Can I say that curiosity and openness tends to work better than dogma, whether it happens to include various stories and rituals about god/gods or not; especially when that includes social awareness and a sense of duty? Or would that make me some kind of condescending, open-minded and cool sort of person?"

"“Everyone apart from those that have been indoctrinated is irreligious from birth. Only a relative few seek it out by free choice."" In that case, there would never have been any religion. You can see how that works can’t you? Perhaps not…"

There’s really not Wils.

"""Everyone apart from those that have been indoctrinated is irreligious from birth. Only a relative few seek it out by free choice."" I can see that thought is quite deep rooted in your psyche. There's an irony in that."

Humans are mostly religious and always have been.

"“Say what you like about non-believers but that is the natural state of human beings” Can you enlarge on that one? I’m up with you to the “say what you like” bit, but can’t get my head round the rest of the sentence, and would hate to miss out."

“ WHU(Exeter) 7:29 Sat Mar 16” Why make you look stupid then did he?

Wils Everyone apart from those that have been indoctrinated is irreligious from birth. Only a relative few seek it out by free choice. Religion is not based on factual evidence. Say what you like about non-believers but that is the natural state of human beings. If god rocks up and says “Oi you lot…” then I’ll be first in the queue…

I hope you’re not addressing that to Willtell.

"""Religion needs indoctrination in the very young or later life events"" So does irreligion. Everyone drills their kids with their own world view. It's no coincidence that kids growing up in atheist households will likely be atheists too. Peer pressure is also huge influence. Societies move towards and away from religion together. What I find interesting about this argument is the paradox in the belief that provides a great many of the irreligious with their sense of superiority. They believe that their lack of religion is becuase they are 'freethinking' and that their own irreligious world view is not a consequence or a product of their own socialising in a society riven with cultural phenomena. This is a very absolutist interpretation of the Christian doctrine of free will."

"Google translate? Magnifying glass? Sorry, but your incredibly thought provoking points and pearls of wisdom….there are so many of them, contained in just a few paragraphs…it’s like looking into a kaleidoscope of higher knowledge. Are you an alien?"

Good education should be about critical thinking. One where you can see religion in a good light as much as science on a bad one. The lens through which you do your thinking is the one that matters.

"Of course it is my first language you plonker. Common sense isn’t your strongpoint though is it? Religion universally spreads by indoctrination. Conversions are relatively few. You don’t get to claim that I’m saying all education is indoctrination because learning maths, language, history and geography are matters of learning evidence based facts.. Religion is not an evidence based subject. I think it’s pure bullshit personally but if you’ve got faith in it compared to a factual education then stop pretending you’re anything other than a smartarse"

Apologies. I keep forgetting that English isn’t your first language.

I never said that any teaching was automatically indoctrination though. You drew that assumption but were wrong to do so. Religion needs indoctrination in the very young or later life events which I covered in detail. You’re just being silly and arguing for arguments sake.

"Your assertion that any teaching of religion is automatically indoctrination. The way you’ve phrased your argument, which taken logically, would also mean that infants taught maths would also be indoctrination. Apologies if you’ve missed these points. If you’d like to point me in the right direction to the higher level, words of wisdom and points, in amongst your drivel, then feel free. Give me 5 minutes and I’ll fetch my readers."

"Your assertion that any teaching of religion is automatically indoctrination. The way you’ve phrased your argument, which taken logically, would also mean that infants taught maths would also be indoctrination. Apologies if you’ve missed these points. If you’d like to point me in the right direction to the higher level, words of wisdom and points, in amongst your drivel, then feel free. Give me 5 minutes and I’ll fetch my readers."

Oh okay. So you’re arguing against what then?

"I don’t worship God Willtell. I think I’ve told you that twice before. You seem to think that if anybody says anything about some benefits of religion, or anybody on these threads who argues with you, is automatically religious and a believer. That’s an idiotic assumption, made even more idiotic, by you repeating it over and over."

"I’m not sure what your point is. You’re obsessed by the definition of indoctrination but the fact is that Christians raise Christians, Muslims raise Muslims and Jews raise Jews. Microsoft might try to indoctrinate you with their shit but I’d be more concerned about the non-existant god you worship if I was you."

"Gotcha. So it’s only things we learn at an infant level, that automatically equates to indoctrination? Basic maths for instance? I was taught about religion at school, in recent years I’ve attended two presentations by people from Microsoft. I know where I felt there was more indoctrination going on. By far.."

You entirely miss the point WHU (Exeter). We learn about all sorts of subjects is true but religion starts at infant level which is indoctrination. Science has an explanation. What evidence is there in a god? And yes I once made a mistake thinking Jews were classed as Christians but what difference does that make? Who cares but the fact there are so many gods only shows how unreliable religion is…

"Willtell, strange as this might sound, we have to learn most things from our parents, schools, etc etc. We learn science also. Just because we learn something, that does not automatically equate to ‘indoctrination’. Keep dipping in though, it’s as if Plato is in the house. Have you got your head round the fact that Jews aren’t Christians yet?"

"I can't resist these type of threads. We have to learn religion. Usually from our parents, education and friends and neighbours. It's called indoctrination. Sure there will be those that through stressful lives turn to god looking for something better, salvation or as an insurance policy for bad illnesses. However, if god invented all does that include the universe? Only it is some 14billion light years across and consists of trillions of stars and planets. How logical is it that the god that created all that wants some ant like creature pleading with him/her for a favour when all the serious worshippers like Muslims seem doomed to everlasting famine, pestilence, or disasters and wars? ."