West Ham Online

Lee Trundle" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 16:48 If you're resorting to AI, then you've lost the fight.

A TKO win for Scum, here.

Nutsin wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025, 05:51 Fights that would have had a different outcome if both fighters were in their prime.

I’ll go Hagler v Leonard and Tyson v Hollyfield.

Who you got?

Nutsin wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 16:33

Gank wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 16:03

Nutsin wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 15:48

It's obvious you didn't even know bout the second fight between Leonard and Hearns, which is surprising seeing as you are such as self proclaimed expert.

I said Hearns won the fight but don't take my word for it, Here's a clip of Sugar Ray Leonard saying it himself, unless of course you know more about the fight than Sugar Ray?

https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+r ... blSJE,st:0

And just in case you don't believe the clip here is another one


https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+r ... gScbA,st:0



As for a fighter losing weight s opposed to gaining weight for a fight here is what AI says.

AI Overview
It is generally easier for a boxer to gain weight for a fight than it is to lose it, especially in the short term. Gaining weight is a matter of eating more calories and protein, and can be done through a strategic diet and weightlifting program. Losing weight is a more complex and often dangerous process involving extreme methods like dehydration to shed water weight quickly, which can negatively impact a fighter's strength and performance if not managed properly. 

Sounds like you're the one who doesn't have a clue of what he is talking about.

As you were.

 

Nutsin, what you and AI are saying is that it is physically easier to put on weight than to lose it. Of course that's true, it's easy to eat kebabs and drink beer all day but hard to exercise and diet.

What Council Scum is saying is that it's much MUCH harder to fight at a heavier weight against someone who is naturally that weight than it is to take your superior strength to a faster but ultimately weaker naturally smaller opponent.

And he's right.

No, what Council scum is saying is that I was wrong about it being harder to lose weight for a fight than go up in weight for a fight. We are not talking about going from welTerweight to heavyweight ffs.

Leonard fought Hearns at light middleweight in 1981 (154 lbs)  and Hagler at Middleweight in 1987 up to (160 lbs) 2 BIG MACS FFS. 

You're both wrong.

Gank wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 16:03

Nutsin wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 15:48

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 08:57

 

You claimed Hearns beat Leonard in his prime, he didn't. He lost. and this is from Boxrec just to clear up how that fight went
"The scoring was controversial. Many felt that rounds six and seven should have been scored 10-8 for Leonard. Pat Putnam of Sports Illustrated opined:Leonard dominated the fight and dictated the pace. The only excitement and action were produced by Leonard. There were only three lopsided rounds, the sixth, seventh and 13th, and Leonard won them all. And the only fighter really hurt was Hearns. But each of the three judges for the WBC-WBA title unification bout had Leonard behind—by four, three and two points—at the end. All of them inexplicably equated a slap on the wrist with a mugging.Leonard had Hearns reeling in the sixth and seventh rounds; was within a couple of punches of knocking him out in the 13th; and finally bullied him so brutally in the 14th that Pearl had to stop it. However, if the fight had run its 15-round course, Hearns no doubt would have won because of the judges' distorted scoring."

You think it's easier to go up in weight? You ever fought someone whose naturally bigger at their weight? I think you don't know the first clue about what you are talking about.

It's obvious you didn't even know bout the second fight between Leonard and Hearns, which is surprising seeing as you are such as self proclaimed expert.

I said Hearns won the fight but don't take my word for it, Here's a clip of Sugar Ray Leonard saying it himself, unless of course you know more about the fight than Sugar Ray?

https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+r ... blSJE,st:0

And just in case you don't believe the clip here is another one


https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+r ... gScbA,st:0



As for a fighter losing weight s opposed to gaining weight for a fight here is what AI says.

AI Overview
It is generally easier for a boxer to gain weight for a fight than it is to lose it, especially in the short term. Gaining weight is a matter of eating more calories and protein, and can be done through a strategic diet and weightlifting program. Losing weight is a more complex and often dangerous process involving extreme methods like dehydration to shed water weight quickly, which can negatively impact a fighter's strength and performance if not managed properly. 

Sounds like you're the one who doesn't have a clue of what he is talking about.

As you were.

 

Nutsin, what you and AI are saying is that it is physically easier to put on weight than to lose it. Of course that's true, it's easy to eat kebabs and drink beer all day but hard to exercise and diet.

What Council Scum is saying is that it's much MUCH harder to fight at a heavier weight against someone who is naturally that weight than it is to take your superior strength to a faster but ultimately weaker naturally smaller opponent.

And he's right.

Nutsin wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 15:48

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 08:57

Nutsin wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025, 15:27

I disagree with you about Ruddock, he could fight and he could hit.

I think you’ll find Hearns fought Leonard twice, First fight Leonard caught him late on after Hearns was putting on a show and was ahead on points on all 3 judges scorecards, the second fight Hearns put Leonard on the canvas 3 times and they called it a draw. A complete travesty of a decision. Even Leonard admitted later on that “Tommy won that fight.” 

As for Hagler fighting at middleweight, everyone knows it’s easier for a fighter to go up in weight than it is for a fighter to go down in weight for a fight. Leonard even said he decided to fight Hagler as he had slowed down and wasn’t as quick as he used to to be. 

As for Hagler v Leonard there are plenty of fight fans who think Hagler won that fight but as per the decision went Leonard’s way in Vegas. 

 

You claimed Hearns beat Leonard in his prime, he didn't. He lost. and this is from Boxrec just to clear up how that fight went
"The scoring was controversial. Many felt that rounds six and seven should have been scored 10-8 for Leonard. Pat Putnam of Sports Illustrated opined:Leonard dominated the fight and dictated the pace. The only excitement and action were produced by Leonard. There were only three lopsided rounds, the sixth, seventh and 13th, and Leonard won them all. And the only fighter really hurt was Hearns. But each of the three judges for the WBC-WBA title unification bout had Leonard behind—by four, three and two points—at the end. All of them inexplicably equated a slap on the wrist with a mugging.Leonard had Hearns reeling in the sixth and seventh rounds; was within a couple of punches of knocking him out in the 13th; and finally bullied him so brutally in the 14th that Pearl had to stop it. However, if the fight had run its 15-round course, Hearns no doubt would have won because of the judges' distorted scoring."

You think it's easier to go up in weight? You ever fought someone whose naturally bigger at their weight? I think you don't know the first clue about what you are talking about.

It's obvious you didn't even know bout the second fight between Leonard and Hearns, which is surprising seeing as you are such as self proclaimed expert.

I said Hearns won the fight but don't take my word for it, Here's a clip of Sugar Ray Leonard saying it himself, unless of course you know more about the fight than Sugar Ray?

https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+r ... blSJE,st:0

And just in case you don't believe the clip here is another one


https://www.google.com/search?q=sugar+r ... gScbA,st:0



As for a fighter losing weight s opposed to gaining weight for a fight here is what AI says.

AI Overview
It is generally easier for a boxer to gain weight for a fight than it is to lose it, especially in the short term. Gaining weight is a matter of eating more calories and protein, and can be done through a strategic diet and weightlifting program. Losing weight is a more complex and often dangerous process involving extreme methods like dehydration to shed water weight quickly, which can negatively impact a fighter's strength and performance if not managed properly. 

Sounds like you're the one who doesn't have a clue of what he is talking about.

As you were.

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 08:57

Nutsin wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025, 15:27

Council Scum" wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025, 08:33

 

Ruddock was just an average heavy, who were his best wins against? A washed up Bonecrusher? 

A prime Duran also lost to Leonard, as Leonard fought the right fight in the rematch, the sign of a great champion.

earns didn't beat Leonard, he got stopped. Probably best you know about the subject matter if you are going to make claims on it. 

I loved Hagler, for me the greatest middle of all time, but he fought Duran, Leonard and Hearns at his weight, not theirs. 

I disagree with you about Ruddock, he could fight and he could hit.

I think you’ll find Hearns fought Leonard twice, First fight Leonard caught him late on after Hearns was putting on a show and was ahead on points on all 3 judges scorecards, the second fight Hearns put Leonard on the canvas 3 times and they called it a draw. A complete travesty of a decision. Even Leonard admitted later on that “Tommy won that fight.” 

As for Hagler fighting at middleweight, everyone knows it’s easier for a fighter to go up in weight than it is for a fighter to go down in weight for a fight. Leonard even said he decided to fight Hagler as he had slowed down and wasn’t as quick as he used to to be. 

As for Hagler v Leonard there are plenty of fight fans who think Hagler won that fight but as per the decision went Leonard’s way in Vegas. 

 

You claimed Hearns beat Leonard in his prime, he didn't. He lost. and this is from Boxrec just to clear up how that fight went
"The scoring was controversial. Many felt that rounds six and seven should have been scored 10-8 for Leonard. Pat Putnam of Sports Illustrated opined:Leonard dominated the fight and dictated the pace. The only excitement and action were produced by Leonard. There were only three lopsided rounds, the sixth, seventh and 13th, and Leonard won them all. And the only fighter really hurt was Hearns. But each of the three judges for the WBC-WBA title unification bout had Leonard behind—by four, three and two points—at the end. All of them inexplicably equated a slap on the wrist with a mugging.Leonard had Hearns reeling in the sixth and seventh rounds; was within a couple of punches of knocking him out in the 13th; and finally bullied him so brutally in the 14th that Pearl had to stop it. However, if the fight had run its 15-round course, Hearns no doubt would have won because of the judges' distorted scoring."

You think it's easier to go up in weight? You ever fought someone whose naturally bigger at their weight? I think you don't know the first clue about what you are talking about.

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:38

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:29

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:21

Couldn't give a fuck if it matters to anyone or not, Calzaghe still convincingly beat Jones Junior in his own backyard at a time and place that was notorious to win out in the States and at the home of boxing, on top of the rest of his career at the top.

Which is why your opinion is stupidity. 

Well done on avoiding the fact Joe should have lost to Reid, but thanks to a Frank Warren special, he got a the nod in a fight he clearly lost and never rematched. 

Clutching now if you're trying to give some of his wins away. Never knocked out, never defeated 46-0 and even won twice in the States beating Jones Junior at Madison to top off a fantastic career with nothing left to prove. 

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:29

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:21

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:08

Whenever you look at lists of greatest fighters of all time, Joe doesn't get a look in, Roy does. But yeah, your opinion matters...

Added to the fact Robin Reid got absolutely robbed against Joe as well. When Joe had barely had 2 successful defences 

Couldn't give a fuck if it matters to anyone or not, Calzaghe still convincingly beat Jones Junior in his own backyard at a time and place that was notorious to win out in the States and at the home of boxing, on top of the rest of his career at the top.

Which is why your opinion is stupidity. 

Well done on avoiding the fact Joe should have lost to Reid, but thanks to a Frank Warren special, he got a the nod in a fight he clearly lost and never rematched. 

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:21

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:08

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 12:27

It's not stupidity when he's never been knocked out, never lost, held world title for 10 years straight, first to unify 3 titles at Super middleweight and even beat Jones Junior himself in the States at Madison Square.

Whenever you look at lists of greatest fighters of all time, Joe doesn't get a look in, Roy does. But yeah, your opinion matters...

Added to the fact Robin Reid got absolutely robbed against Joe as well. When Joe had barely had 2 successful defences 

Couldn't give a fuck if it matters to anyone or not, Calzaghe still convincingly beat Jones Junior in his own backyard at a time and place that was notorious to win out in the States and at the home of boxing, on top of the rest of his career at the top.

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 13:08

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 12:27

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 12:13

 

Saying Roy was one rung down from Calzaghe, isn't opinion, its stupidity. I loved Joe, but Jones was a generational talent, Joe had a fantastic, well managed career. 

It's not stupidity when he's never been knocked out, never lost, held world title for 10 years straight, first to unify 3 titles at Super middleweight and even beat Jones Junior himself in the States at Madison Square.

Whenever you look at lists of greatest fighters of all time, Joe doesn't get a look in, Roy does. But yeah, your opinion matters...

Added to the fact Robin Reid got absolutely robbed against Joe as well. When Joe had barely had 2 successful defences 

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 12:27

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 12:13

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 11:18 Calm down, dear FFS. You have your opinion and I have mine, it's all good. My 'good' that's triggered you in regards to Jones is being 1 rung down from Calzaghes level. As for research, I've been watching boxing since the 80s. 

 

Saying Roy was one rung down from Calzaghe, isn't opinion, its stupidity. I loved Joe, but Jones was a generational talent, Joe had a fantastic, well managed career. 

It's not stupidity when he's never been knocked out, never lost, held world title for 10 years straight, first to unify 3 titles at Super middleweight and even beat Jones Junior himself in the States at Madison Square.

Council Scum" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 12:13

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 11:18 Calm down, dear FFS. You have your opinion and I have mine, it's all good. My 'good' that's triggered you in regards to Jones is being 1 rung down from Calzaghes level. As for research, I've been watching boxing since the 80s. 

 

Saying Roy was one rung down from Calzaghe, isn't opinion, its stupidity. I loved Joe, but Jones was a generational talent, Joe had a fantastic, well managed career. 

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 11:18 Calm down, dear FFS. You have your opinion and I have mine, it's all good. My 'good' that's triggered you in regards to Jones is being 1 rung down from Calzaghes level. As for research, I've been watching boxing since the 80s. 

Eerie Decent" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 11:51 That's definitely the face I made when you told me you had watched Lopetegui's Spain U19 side regularly. 

 

No, I was watching an U19 Euro Tournament because England were in it that he ended up winning. But fuck knows why you want to bring him up in a Boxing thread..

Massive Attack" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 08:54

Eerie Decent" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 08:31 A four weight World Champion, long time no.1 P4P when active, had a glass jaw, and wasn't as good as he thought he was.

Interesting take.

 

I did clarify it with if they could get to him to land it. His footwork avoiding trouble was often good but his guard was a weakness at times dropping his arms a lot and once a fighter connected with his jaw he'd be sparko. I also stated Jones Jr was good, so hardly diminishing him, just not against the likes of Calzaghe, Tarver and even Johnson he came unstuck when he was more in his prime.

Eerie Decent" wrote: ↑15 Oct 2025, 08:52 I never said easily, I loved Calzaghe as a fighter, not taking anything away from him. He was brilliant, and in their primes, would've been a great fight, but only one winner at the end for me.

RJJ could be the most talented boxer that ever laced up a pair of gloves, up until he fucked about with the weights, he was ridiculous, Toney & Hopkins in their prime vs Lacy & Kessler?

Both great fighters, but what Massive is doing here trying to diminish RJJ is silly.

Nutsin wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025, 15:27

Council Scum" wrote: ↑14 Oct 2025, 08:33

Nutsin wrote: ↑13 Oct 2025, 16:02

 

I think Razor Ruddock was the best fighter Tyson faced when he was in his prime. 
Holyfield did too many Roids but I will give him his respect he had heart and a great chin, his fights with Bowe were some of the most brutal rounds of boxing I’ve seen.

A prime Duran beat up a prime Leonard as Did Tommy Hearns.

Leonard ducked Hagler for years before they fought. Haglers fights with Hearns and Mugabi prove to me he was the best of the four kings.

 

Ruddock was just an average heavy, who were his best wins against? A washed up Bonecrusher? 

A prime Duran also lost to Leonard, as Leonard fought the right fight in the rematch, the sign of a great champion.

earns didn't beat Leonard, he got stopped. Probably best you know about the subject matter if you are going to make claims on it. 

I loved Hagler, for me the greatest middle of all time, but he fought Duran, Leonard and Hearns at his weight, not theirs. 

I disagree with you about Ruddock, he could fight and he could hit.

I think you’ll find Hearns fought Leonard twice, First fight Leonard caught him late on after Hearns was putting on a show and was ahead on points on all 3 judges scorecards, the second fight Hearns put Leonard on the canvas 3 times and they called it a draw. A complete travesty of a decision. Even Leonard admitted later on that “Tommy won that fight.” 

As for Hagler fighting at middleweight, everyone knows it’s easier for a fighter to go up in weight than it is for a fighter to go down in weight for a fight. Leonard even said he decided to fight Hagler as he had slowed down and wasn’t as quick as he used to to be. 

As for Hagler v Leonard there are plenty of fight fans who think Hagler won that fight but as per the decision went Leonard’s way in Vegas.