Stubbornness — on all sides

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

For as long as many of us can remember, West Ham have bounced between relegation fights and promotion pushes. In plenty of those seasons we got through because we stuck together and the place was loud when it mattered.This feels like one of those seasons where we could end up on the wrong side of the line. And if we’re honest, something around the club feels off.Since the move from Upton Park, I can’t help feeling that a section of the fanbase almost sees relegation as a punishment for Sullivan. But if that happens, the only people who really pay for it are the team and the supporters. A flat, divided crowd doesn’t help anyone. We’ve all seen on European nights that the London Stadium can be a great atmosphere when everyone’s at it.At the same time, it’s hard to know what Sullivan actually wants. He could probably have sold up for a big profit when we were pushing top six and doing well in Europe, but he didn’t. From the outside, it just looks like stubbornness on both sides.My kids don’t have the same attachment to Upton Park — they were too young. They just love West Ham as it is. Maybe that says something. Maybe those of us still hung up on the move need to accept it’s not changing, and maybe Sullivan needs to see that the relationship with a lot of the fanbase is worn out.Let the next generation just support the club without carrying all this baggage. Right now it feels like all of us — Sullivan and some of us older fans — are getting in the way.West Ham should be about what comes next, not just what’s gone.
 

 

[GBHammer63]

I blame that old fossil Michael Tabor. Felt at the time like he could have set us on a better path instead of Brown. Just wasn't to be.

 

 

Pretty sure Tabor at the time was giving it the PR about cash injection, but in reality it was just a load of loans that would put the Club in debt.

Tabor gave GSB their plan for the future it seems. The Icelandics were the real chance, amazing to think we were one of the richest clubs (pre PSR) that the owner was willing to spend (albeit unwisely), sliding doors , to on our arses over night and bones being picked over by the GSB vultures.

[Massive Attack]

The best (of a bad bunch) Owners we've had in modern times is the Icelandics. Prepared to stump up dough although poorly spent at times, heart generally seemed in the right place and the place was a lot more positive compared to others. The only thing that fucked that up in classic West Ham fashion of bad luck was the sudden freak financial banking collapse that ruined BG and in turn our situation no real fault of their own. 

Just clocked BG passed away a year ago this month as it happens. 

Their initial consultation with those Labour twats and Tory cսnt Coe told them they wanted to do it properly by integrating the Stadium with Football in mind after, but Coe & Co thought arrogantly better than to waste time on those proposals.  

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/footba ... 94416.html

We seem destined to have eternally cursed with sogshit Owners.

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

Some of the comparisons being raised are interesting. Terry Brown was probably more disliked than Sullivan at his peak. When Sullivan first came in a lot of fans said they would have preferred Tony Fernandes, but QPR under Fernandes became a real boom and bust story and plenty of their fans do not look back on that fondly. In many ways that is the opposite of Sullivan’s time, which has been fairly steady even if it has not been romantic. The Spurs example is relevant too because the owned versus leased debate is so topical for us. They chose ownership and a huge build, but they also had a far bigger global income base to support it. I know this can sound pro Sullivan but that is not my aim. I have said a few times I think it is time for him to move on. My point is just that there is a wider perspective here. It is useful to look at Brown, Spurs, Tabor and others because it shows these issues are bigger than one owner or one club. That wider context makes the discussion more interesting.

[Massive Attack]

On a related note:
Spurs may have to pay Thomas Frank 18m in compensation (not sure if that’s dependent on him finding another job). 
apparently they lost 26m last year and 80 odd million before that. 

I don’t think a manager is an asset in the way a player is so Frank is just a cost and a huge cost at that as they will have to pay another manager now etc..

So even with it being a successful revenue generating business. It doesn’t take much to push them into even more debt. 
I suppose for them the opportunity cost of going down vs sacking Frank is unthinkable. Their business model would be wrecked if they were relegated. 



 

And how much have they still to pay off for their Spaceship millstone around their neck as well....

[stubbo-admin]

I blame that old fossil Michael Tabor. Felt at the time like he could have set us on a better path instead of Brown. Just wasn't to be.

 

 

 

Pretty sure Tabor at the time was giving it the PR about cash injection, but in reality it was just a load of loans that would put the Club in debt.

[North Bank]

I blame that old fossil Michael Tabor. Felt at the time like he could have set us on a better path instead of Brown. Just wasn't to be.

Wasn't Tabor introduced to the board by Jack Petchey? 

Both were pretty loaded and fully fledged members of the Essex multi-millionaire club or did I imagine that? 

They certainly made Terrance look like a rank amateur anyhow...which he clearly was. 

eusebio It was Redknapp iirc, but Brown, Storrie et al weren't interested as it could've fucked up their little arrangement of underhand payments between themselves. Let's not forget that at that time Terence Brown was the second highest paid Director in the PL, only surpassed by the ceo of Man U, Peter Kenyon I think

[threesixty]

On a related note:
Spurs may have to pay Thomas Frank 18m in compensation (not sure if that’s dependent on him finding another job). 
apparently they lost 26m last year and 80 odd million before that. 

I don’t think a manager is an asset in the way a player is so Frank is just a cost and a huge cost at that as they will have to pay another manager now etc..

So even with it being a successful revenue generating business. It doesn’t take much to push them into even more debt. 
I suppose for them the opportunity cost of going down vs sacking Frank is unthinkable. Their business model would be wrecked if they were relegated. 

 

[eusebiovic]

I blame that old fossil Michael Tabor. Felt at the time like he could have set us on a better path instead of Brown. Just wasn't to be.

Wasn't Tabor introduced to the board by Jack Petchey? 

Both were pretty loaded and fully fledged members of the Essex multi-millionaire club or did I imagine that? 

They certainly made Terrance look like a rank amateur anyhow...which he clearly was. 

[Massive Attack]

I blame that old fossil Michael Tabor. Felt at the time like he could have set us on a better path instead of Brown. Just wasn't to be.

[eusebiovic]

If we get relegated this season it will be because we were too bad to stay up and nothing at all to do with the stadium. I say that because the previous two occasions we have been relegated this century our home ground was our much vaunted Boleyn Ground.

We go down because our ownership has not done enough, despite the clear indication and warnings, to focus on the standard of our squad and coaching staff. For the owners to take us down once is hard to accept, for the same owners to take a club of our standing and comparative wealth down twice is frankly first level ineptitude.

I have supported this club since its first division days back in the fifties. It is clear that the attitude of fans has changed over time and the major changes have coincided with the formation of the Premier League. The fact of the matter is if anyone wants a positive vibe from the fans it is up to the highly paid blokes out on the Park to give us something to shout for. We are not as forgiving of players as we used to be because other than the shirt they wear we have no other connection with them. 

100% agree
The only way to really keep fans onside and spending is to win. The only way to win is to spend money on players that you wont have unless you win. 

Absolutely not true. We didn’t win much in the 90s, yet (after we saw off the bond scheme debacle) the fans turned up in big numbers because the atmosphere at Upton Park was often (not always) electric and we had a team that tried to get on the front foot.

You could see that there was a connection between the fans and many players (although not the board - it isn’t necessary).

West Ham fans aren’t spoilt. Give them an experience they’ll enjoy. Something visceral that rocks their boots, and that they remember.

Serving up cheap, gently reheated warm diarrhoea from a relentless string of unemployed managers in an athletics stadium with less soul than Hitler - that’ll alienate people. 

Agreed, it all goes back to Terry Brown. He was the wrong person at a time when we sorely needed somebody with the contacts, know-how and resources to have built a sparkling new stadium on the site of the old ground instead of the piecemeal, lob-sided disappointment that in the end everyone made the best of but wasn't anywhere near the same in terms of atmosphere beforehand.

Then we had the polite, money laundering Icelandic ownership whose approach to player recruitment wasn't much better than Sullivan. 

It hasn't improved. As you say, nobody expects Champions League if it happened it's a bonus. A well recruited squad of players who punch above their weight and regularly put a severe dent in the ambitions of the clubs who expect to win every title and whinge if they don't would make a huge difference to the matchday atmosphere.

It seems like it's too much to ask.

[northbankfrank]

Atmosphere has little to do with ground or ownership.  There have been some noisy games at the London Stadium under the current owners and a flat atmosphere at Upton Park under previous owners.  We are as guilty as almost every other team of sing when you're winning.  If the current ownership had spent their money wisely instead of spunking it up the wall, there would be a much better atmosphere as we'd be winning more games.

[stubbo-admin]

You're a board plant mate, you have only posted 35 times and all of them on this particular subject, nothing to say elsewhere then?

There's very little "apathy" amongst the support just go to an away game to see how strong the feeling is.

Whilst I obviously can't reveal more, WhereDoesThisEnd is who he says he is (and not a board plant).

I'll of course now be accused of being a board plant! 

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

You're a board plant mate, you have only posted 35 times and all of them on this particular subject, nothing to say elsewhere then?

There's very little "apathy" amongst the support just go to an away game to see how strong the feeling is.

I did say I only really signed up to have this conversation. I was half tempted to contribute to the Nutsin strippers thread but thought better of it.

No one’s questioning the passion of the 3,000 who travel away, that group is always going to be the most engaged. My point was about the wider crowd. When you’re there in person you can feel the difference in energy.

[Far Cough UKunt]

You're a board plant mate, you have only posted 35 times and all of them on this particular subject, nothing to say elsewhere then?

There's very little "apathy" amongst the support just go to an away game to see how strong the feeling is.

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

Doesn't matter how much you try to spin or wriggle out of it, all fault lines lead directly back to Sullivan (the de facto board / Director of Football).

 Honestly there is no spinning or wriggling from my side. I cannot get to Saturday games but I made the Brighton and Forest matches midweek and the feeling I picked up was not anger, it was apathy, and that is far more worrying for a club.

Forums tend to attract the strongest opinions and this place is probably at the sharp end of the anti Sullivan voice. I actually joined to have the discussion in that environment and what struck me is that it is a very loud minority. My sense is a lot of supporters sit somewhere in the middle, wanting change but without the extreme views.

Sullivan clearly has not got everything right and it is time for a handover, but we have also had stability, reasonable financial footing and there have been worse owners around the game in the last 15 years.

The bigger concern to me is not Sullivan versus the vocal critics, it is the flat feeling around the place in big games and must win moments. Owners come and go, but if the fanbase drifts into indifference that is harder to fix. Whatever people think of him, the club needs energy around it again.

[Mike Oxsaw]

100% agree
The only way to really keep fans onside and spending is to win. The only way to win is to spend money on players that you wont have unless you win. 

Absolutely not true. We didn’t win much in the 90s, yet (after we saw off the bond scheme debacle) the fans turned up in big numbers because the atmosphere at Upton Park was often (not always) electric and we had a team that tried to get on the front foot.

You could see that there was a connection between the fans and many players (although not the board - it isn’t necessary).

West Ham fans aren’t spoilt. Give them an experience they’ll enjoy. Something visceral that rocks their boots, and that they remember.

Serving up cheap, gently reheated warm diarrhoea from a relentless string of unemployed managers in an athletics stadium with less soul than Hitler - that’ll alienate people. 

Upton Park was flat more times than not last few seasons, Athletics Bowl CAN have an electric atmosphere, as proved by the European nights under the lights (although it is harder to generate). If the fans have a reason to feel good then the place will feel different, can't see it without new owners and a new start though

So. 100% down to the board to deliver a squad that, in turn, delivers performances that electrify the atmosphere.

Doesn't matter how much you try to spin or wriggle out of it, all fault lines lead directly back to Sullivan (the de facto board / Director of Football).

[Hammer I am]

If we get relegated this season it will be because we were too bad to stay up and nothing at all to do with the stadium. I say that because the previous two occasions we have been relegated this century our home ground was our much vaunted Boleyn Ground.

We go down because our ownership has not done enough, despite the clear indication and warnings, to focus on the standard of our squad and coaching staff. For the owners to take us down once is hard to accept, for the same owners to take a club of our standing and comparative wealth down twice is frankly first level ineptitude.

I have supported this club since its first division days back in the fifties. It is clear that the attitude of fans has changed over time and the major changes have coincided with the formation of the Premier League. The fact of the matter is if anyone wants a positive vibe from the fans it is up to the highly paid blokes out on the Park to give us something to shout for. We are not as forgiving of players as we used to be because other than the shirt they wear we have no other connection with them. 

100% agree
The only way to really keep fans onside and spending is to win. The only way to win is to spend money on players that you wont have unless you win. 

Absolutely not true. We didn’t win much in the 90s, yet (after we saw off the bond scheme debacle) the fans turned up in big numbers because the atmosphere at Upton Park was often (not always) electric and we had a team that tried to get on the front foot.

You could see that there was a connection between the fans and many players (although not the board - it isn’t necessary).

West Ham fans aren’t spoilt. Give them an experience they’ll enjoy. Something visceral that rocks their boots, and that they remember.

Serving up cheap, gently reheated warm diarrhoea from a relentless string of unemployed managers in an athletics stadium with less soul than Hitler - that’ll alienate people. 

Upton Park was flat more times than not last few seasons, Athletics Bowl CAN have an electric atmosphere, as proved by the European nights under the lights (although it is harder to generate). If the fans have a reason to feel good then the place will feel different, can't see it without new owners and a new start though

[southbankbornnbred]

If we get relegated this season it will be because we were too bad to stay up and nothing at all to do with the stadium. I say that because the previous two occasions we have been relegated this century our home ground was our much vaunted Boleyn Ground.

We go down because our ownership has not done enough, despite the clear indication and warnings, to focus on the standard of our squad and coaching staff. For the owners to take us down once is hard to accept, for the same owners to take a club of our standing and comparative wealth down twice is frankly first level ineptitude.

I have supported this club since its first division days back in the fifties. It is clear that the attitude of fans has changed over time and the major changes have coincided with the formation of the Premier League. The fact of the matter is if anyone wants a positive vibe from the fans it is up to the highly paid blokes out on the Park to give us something to shout for. We are not as forgiving of players as we used to be because other than the shirt they wear we have no other connection with them. 

100% agree
The only way to really keep fans onside and spending is to win. The only way to win is to spend money on players that you wont have unless you win. 

Absolutely not true. We didn’t win much in the 90s, yet (after we saw off the bond scheme debacle) the fans turned up in big numbers because the atmosphere at Upton Park was often (not always) electric and we had a team that tried to get on the front foot.

You could see that there was a connection between the fans and many players (although not the board - it isn’t necessary).

West Ham fans aren’t spoilt. Give them an experience they’ll enjoy. Something visceral that rocks their boots, and that they remember.

Serving up cheap, gently reheated warm diarrhoea from a relentless string of unemployed managers in an athletics stadium with less soul than Hitler - that’ll alienate people. 

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

If we get relegated this season it will be because we were too bad to stay up and nothing at all to do with the stadium. I say that because the previous two occasions we have been relegated this century our home ground was our much vaunted Boleyn Ground.

We go down because our ownership has not done enough, despite the clear indication and warnings, to focus on the standard of our squad and coaching staff. For the owners to take us down once is hard to accept, for the same owners to take a club of our standing and comparative wealth down twice is frankly first level ineptitude.

I have supported this club since its first division days back in the fifties. It is clear that the attitude of fans has changed over time and the major changes have coincided with the formation of the Premier League. The fact of the matter is if anyone wants a positive vibe from the fans it is up to the highly paid blokes out on the Park to give us something to shout for. We are not as forgiving of players as we used to be because other than the shirt they wear we have no other connection with them. 

100% agree
The only way to really keep fans onside and spending is to win. The only way to win is to spend money on players that you wont have unless you win. 

[WhereDoesThisEnd]

In a nutshell we had the wrong people in charge when it came to redeveloping the old ground to a very high standard to ensure it was future proof enabling the club to reach the next level.

We ended up at the future proof toilet bowl as a direct consequence of that fact and now we have different people in charge but they are still the wrong ones to enable the club to reach the next level.

Is that fair?

Sounds about right to me 

[eusebiovic]

In a nutshell we had the wrong people in charge when it came to redeveloping the old ground to a very high standard to ensure it was future proof enabling the club to reach the next level.

We ended up at the future proof toilet bowl as a direct consequence of that fact and now we have different people in charge but they are still the wrong ones to enable the club to reach the next level.

Is that fair?

[threesixty]

If we get relegated this season it will be because we were too bad to stay up and nothing at all to do with the stadium. I say that because the previous two occasions we have been relegated this century our home ground was our much vaunted Boleyn Ground.

We go down because our ownership has not done enough, despite the clear indication and warnings, to focus on the standard of our squad and coaching staff. For the owners to take us down once is hard to accept, for the same owners to take a club of our standing and comparative wealth down twice is frankly first level ineptitude.

I have supported this club since its first division days back in the fifties. It is clear that the attitude of fans has changed over time and the major changes have coincided with the formation of the Premier League. The fact of the matter is if anyone wants a positive vibe from the fans it is up to the highly paid blokes out on the Park to give us something to shout for. We are not as forgiving of players as we used to be because other than the shirt they wear we have no other connection with them. 

 

 

100%

[,]

If we get relegated this season it will be because we were too bad to stay up and nothing at all to do with the stadium. I say that because the previous two occasions we have been relegated this century our home ground was our much vaunted Boleyn Ground.

We go down because our ownership has not done enough, despite the clear indication and warnings, to focus on the standard of our squad and coaching staff. For the owners to take us down once is hard to accept, for the same owners to take a club of our standing and comparative wealth down twice is frankly first level ineptitude.

I have supported this club since its first division days back in the fifties. It is clear that the attitude of fans has changed over time and the major changes have coincided with the formation of the Premier League. The fact of the matter is if anyone wants a positive vibe from the fans it is up to the highly paid blokes out on the Park to give us something to shout for. We are not as forgiving of players as we used to be because other than the shirt they wear we have no other connection with them. 

[Mike Oxsaw]

I seem to recall that while we were still considering rebuilding/expanding the Boleyn, one of the major stumbling blocks was a bus stand under the East Stand that was deemed "vital to the local public transport network" and could not be moved. This meant we couldn't expand eastwards.

Within days of us abandoning the plans to redevelop, that "vital" bus stand was suddenly deemed as excess to requirements and swiftly withdrawn from use.

I think at that point the decision to move had already been made, taken and approved and civil servants at all levels spent the day high-fiving each other..

[GBHammer63]

I don’t think it’s stubbornness at all on the part of the fans, if you’re served up a shit experience on multiple fronts who can blame any for walking away or complaining?
Its stubborn or fucking stupid to accept the aforementioned shit show as though it were gospel, knowing that the chance of the owners accepting even the smallest mistake is madness. 
For what it’s worth, I agree there’s stubbornness on the side of the ownership, to change fuck all to improve the situation.