Hamas attack Israel

[claret on my shirt]

"Or should i say they are attacking to get THEIR land back. Good luck to them. The World will watch and do nothing to help them as they always do, shame on us."

[Lee Trundle]

"I don't recall ever calling you a lefties, joyo. A stupid idiot? Yes A lycra wearing closet homosexual who likes looking at his mates sweaty arse in front of him? Absolutely. Someone who pays to sleep with disabled girls? That goes without saying. But I don't ever remember calling you a leftie."

[solidbond]

Joyo you support a far right regime which practices Apartheid so you’re a rancid far right extremist scumbag whether you like it or not .

[Side of Ham]

RoyalDocksGK 4:33 Thu Oct 12 Great find this.....some posters need to shut the fuck up carrying on their petty squabbles with each other on here.....hopefully they will read your post RoyalDocksGK.......and see the shitfest that it is....

[joyo]

"solidbond...apparently goose,Zoso,Jaan,talkingshite lcke,Rios,Van loon,Lee the ladyboy and few other think I'm a leftie remoaner(voted for Brexit) I'm moderate and fucking hate extremists like you just like the conspiracy theorists idiots,actually hate you loony left more as you're pure scum backing hamas"

[solidbond]

Joyo: And one on far right the original rancid scumbag Joyo .

[RoyalDocksGK]

"A post I found in Twitter. Thought it was a good insight. People ask me all the time if I am ""pro-Israel"" because I am a Jew who has lived in Israel, and my answer is that being ""pro-Israel"" or being ""pro-Palestine"" or being a ""Zionist"" does not properly capture the nuance of thought most people do or should have about this issue. It certainly doesn't capture mine. I have a lot to say. I’ve spent the last 72 hours writing, texting, and talking to Israelis, Jews, Muslims, and Palestinians. Much of my reaction is going to piss off people on ""both sides,"" but I am exhausted and hurting and I do not think there is any way to discuss this situation without being radically honest about my views. So I'm going to try to say what I believe to be true the best I can. Let me start with this: It could have been me. That's a hard thought to shake when watching the videos out of Israel — the concert goers fleeing across an empty expanse, the hostages being paraded through the streets, the people shot in the head at bus stops or in their cars. I went to those parties in the desert, I rubbed shoulders with Israelis and Arabs and Jews and Muslims, I could have easily accepted an invitation to some concert near Sderot and gone without a care, only to be indiscriminately slaughtered. Or, perhaps worse, taken hostage and tortured. I don’t believe Hamas is killing Israelis to liberate themselves, nor do I believe they are doing it to make peace. They're doing this because they represent the devil on the shoulder of every oppressed Palestinian who has lost someone in this conflict. They're doing it because they want vengeance. They are evening the score, and acting on the worst of our human impulses, to respond to blood with blood — an inclination that is easy to give in to after what their people have endured. It should not be hard to understand their logic — it is only hard to accept that humans are capable of being driven to this. Not defending Hamas is a very low bar to clear. Please clear it. It’s not possible to recap the entire 5,000 year history of people fighting over this strip of land in one newsletter. There are plenty of easily accessible places you can learn about it if you want to (and, by the way, many of you should — far too many people speak on this issue with an obscene amount of ignorance, loads of arrogance, and a narrow historical lens focused on the last few decades). But I'll briefly highlight a few things that are important to me. In my opinion, the Jewish people have a legitimate historical claim to the land of Israel. Jews had already been expelled and returned and expelled again a half dozen times before the rise of the Muslim and Arab rule of the Ottoman Empire. Of course it’s messy because we Jews and Arabs and Muslims are all cousins and descendents of the same Canaanites. But Arabs won the land centuries ago the same way Israel and Jews won it in the 20th century: Through conflict and war. The British defeated the Ottoman Empire and then came the Balfour Declaration, which amounted to the British granting the area to the Jewish people, a promise they’d later try to renege on — all before the wars that have defined the region since 1948. That historical moment in the late 1940s was unique. After World War II, with many Arab and Muslim states already in existence, and after six million Jews were slaughtered, the global community felt it was important to grant the Jewish people a homeland. In a more logical or just world that homeland would have been in Europe as a kind of reparation for what the Nazis and others before them had done to the Jews, or perhaps in the Americas — like Alaska — or somewhere else. But the Jews wanted Israel, the British had taken to the Zionist movement, the British had conquered the Ottoman Empire which handed them control of the land, and America and Europe didn’t want the Jews. As a result, we got Israel. The Arab states had already rejected a partitioned Israel repeatedly before World War II and rejected it again after the Holocaust and the end of the war. They did not want to give up even a little bit of their land to a bunch of Jewish interlopers who were granted it all of a sudden by British interlopers who had arrived a hundred years prior. Who could blame them? It had been centuries since Jews lived there in large numbers, and now they wanted to return in waves as secularized Europeans. Many of us would probably react the same way. So, just as humans have done forever, they fought. The many existing Arab states turned against the burgeoning new Jewish state. One side won and one side lost. This is the brutal and broken and violent world we live in, but it is what created the global world order we have now. Are Israelis and British people ""colonizers"" because of this 20th century history? Sure. But that view flattens thousands of years of history and conflict, and the context of World War I and World War II. I don’t view Israelis and Brits as colonizers any more than the Assyrians or the Babylonians or the Romans or the Mongols or the Egyptians or the Ottomans who all battled over the same strip of land from as early as 800 years before Jesus’s time until now. The Jews who founded Israel just happened to have won the last big battle for it. You can’t speak about this issue in a vacuum. You can't pretend that it wasn't just 60 years ago when Israel was surrounded on all sides by Arab states who wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. Despite the balance of power shifting this century, that threat is still a reality. And you can't talk about that without remembering the only reason the Jews were in Israel in the first place was that they'd spent the previous centuries fleeing a bunch of Europeans who also wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet. And then Hitler showed up. American partisans have a narrow view of this history, and an Americentric lens that is infuriating to witness. As Lee Fang perfectly put it, ""Hamas would absolutely execute the ACAB lefties cheering on horrific violence against Israelis if they lived in Gaza & U.S. right-wingers blindly cheering on Israeli subjugation of Palestinians would rebel twice as violently if Americans were subjected to similar occupation."" And yet, many Americans only view modern Israel as the ""powerful"" one in this dynamic. Which is true — they obviously are. It isn't a fair fight and it hasn't been for decades because Israel's government is rich and resourceful, has the backing of the United States and most of Europe, and has an incredibly powerful military. At the same time, Israeli leadership has made technological and military advancements that have further tipped those scales — all while the Israeli government has helped create a resource-thin open air prison of two million Arabs in Gaza. Conversely, Palestinians are devoid of any real unified leadership, and the Arab world is now divided on the issue of Palestine. Israel is unwilling to give the people in Gaza and the West Bank more than an inch of freedom to live. These are largely the refugees and descendents of the refugees of the 1948 and 1967 wars that Israel won. And you can't keep two million people in the condition that those in the Gaza strip live in and not expect events like this. I'm sorry to say that while the blood on the ground is fresh. The Israelis who were killed in this attack largely have nothing to do with those conditions other than being born at a time when Israel and Jews have the upper hand in this conflict. Some of the victims weren’t even Israeli — they were just tourists. This is why we describe them as “innocent” and why Hamas has only reaffirmed that they are a brutal terror organization with this attack — an organization that I hope is quickly toppled, for the sake of both the Palestinian people and the Israelis. But as someone with a deep love for Israel, with friends in danger and people I know still missing, it breaks my heart to say it but I'm saying it again because it remains perhaps the most salient point of context in a tangled mess full of centuries of context: You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising. And the cycle of violence seems locked in to self-perpetuate, because both sides see a score to settle: 1) Israel has already responded with a vengeance, and they will continue to. Their desire for violence is not unlike Hamas’s — it’s just as much about blood for blood as any legitimate security measure. Israel will “have every right to respond with force."" Toppling Hamas — a group, by the way, Israel erred in supporting — will now be the objective, and civilian death will be seen as necessary collateral damage. But Israel will also do a bunch of things they don't have a right to. They will flatten apartment buildings and kill civilians and children and many in the global community will probably cheer them on while they do it. They have already stopped the flow of water, electricity, and food to two million people, and killed dozens of civilians in their retaliatory bombings. We should never accept this, never lose sight that this horror is being inflicted on human beings. As the group B’Tselem said, “There is no justification for such crimes, whether they are committed as part of a struggle for freedom from oppression or cited as part of a war against terror.” I mourn for the innocents of Palestine just as I do for the innocents in Israel. As of late, many, many more have died on their side than Israel's. And many more Palestinians are likely to die in this spate of violence, too. Unfortunately, most people in the West only pay attention to this story when Hamas or a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank commits an act of violence. Palestinian citizens die regularly at the hands of the Israeli military and their plight goes largely unnoticed until they respond with violence of their own. Israel had already killed an estimated 250 Palestinians, including 47 children, this year alone. And that is just in the West Bank. 2) Every single time Israel kills someone in the name of self-defense they create a handful of new radicalized extremists who will feel justified in wanting to take an Israeli life in retribution sometime in the future. Half of Gaza’s two million people are under the age of 19 — they know little besides Hamas rule (since 2006), Israeli occupation, blockades, and rockets falling from the sky. The suffering of these innocent children born into this reality is incomprehensible to me. They will suffer more now because of Hamas’s actions and Israel’s response, all through no fault of their own. There is no way out of this pattern until one side exercises restraint or leaders on both sides find a new solution. Israelis will tell you that if Palestinians put their guns down then the war would end, but if Israel put their guns down they'd be wiped off the planet. I don't have a crystal ball and can’t tell you what is true. But what I am certain of is that every time Israel kills more innocents they engender more rage and hatred and recruit more Palestinians and Arabs to the cause against them. There is no disputing this. So, why did this happen now? I'm not sure how to answer that question except to say it was bound to happen eventually. It was a massive policy and intelligence failure and Netanyahu should pay the price politically — he is a failed leader. Iran probably helped organize the attack and the money freed up by the Biden administration's prisoner swap probably didn't help the situation, either. Israel's increasingly extremist government and settlers provoking Palestinians certainly didn't help. Nor has going to the Al-Aqsa mosque and desecrating it. Nor do blockades and bombings and indiscriminate subjugation of a whole people. Nor does refusing to talk to non-terrorist leaders in Palestine. Nor does illegally continuing to expand and steal what is left of Palestinian land, as many Jews and Israelis have been doing in the 21st century despite cries from the global community to stop. A violent response was predictable — in fact, plenty of people did predict it. Israel is forever stuffing these people into tinier and tinier boxes with fewer and fewer resources. But if you want to blame Israeli leaders for continuing to expand and settle land that does not belong to them (as I do), then you should also spare some blame for Palestinian leaders for repeatedly not accepting a partitioned Israel during the 20th century that could have led to peace (as I do). Please also remember this: Hamas is still an extremist group. The Palestinian people do not have a government or leaders who legitimately represent their interests, and it sure as hell isn't Hamas. Will some Palestinians cheer and clap at the dead, or spit on them as they are paraded through Gaza? Yes they will. And they have. Many will also mourn because they loathe Hamas and know this will only make things worse. This is no different than how some Americans cheer at the dead in every single war we've ever fought. It's no different than the Israelis who set up lawn chairs to watch their government bomb Palestine and cheer them on, too. This doesn't mean Palestinians or Israelis or Americans are evil — it means some of them are giving in to their violent impulses, and their zealous feelings of righteous vengeance. Solutions, you ask? I can’t say I have any. If you came here for that, I’m sorry. The two-state solution looks dead to me. A three-state solution makes some sense but feels out of the view of all the people who matter and could make it happen. I wish a one-state solution felt realistic — a world of Israelis and Arabs and Muslims and Jews living side by side with equal rights, fully integrated and defused of their hate, is a version of Israel that I would adore. But it seems less and less realistic with every new act of violence. Am I pro-Israel or pro-Palestine? I have no idea. I'm pro-not-killing-civilians. I'm pro-not-trapping-millions-of-people-in-open-air-prisons. I'm pro-not-shooting-grandmas-in-the-back-of-the-head. I'm pro-not-flattening-apartment-complexes. I'm pro-not-raping-women-and-taking-hostages. I'm pro-not-unjustly-imprisoning-people-without-due-process. I'm pro-freedom and pro-peace and pro- all the things we never see in this conflict anymore. Whatever this is, I want none of it."

[Hammer and Pickle]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/amp/ Don’t think Hamas seem like the sort to take kindly to this kind of thing

[joyo]

"We have some proper scumbag posters on this thread On the Left - collyrob,Thickle,Solibond On the Right - Oxbore,Braindead"

[Mr Anon]

"Mike Oxsaw 3:17 Thu Oct 12 Re: Hamas attack Israel Using your analogy I would like to think West Ham fans are more likely to readucate the muppets that ruin it for the rest of if, rather than treat them like heros. We all should know there's bad and good on both sides of this mess. I see a lot of Jews calling out Israel's conduct, don't see a lot of that from the other side, would go a long way if both sides had people calling for restraint"

[Mr Anon]

"Mike Oxsaw 3:17 Thu Oct 12 Re: Hamas attack Israel Using your analogy I would like to think West Ham fans are more likely to readucate the muppets that ruin it for the rest of if, rather than treat them like heros. We all should know there's bad and good on both sides of this mess. I see a lot of Jews calling out Israel's conduct, don't see a lot of that from the other side, would go a long way if both sides had people calling for restraint"

[Mr Anon]

"Collyrob Thu Oct 12 Re: Hamas attack Israel Mr Anon 12:17 Thu Oct 12 Re: Hamas attack Israel ""I’ve questioned the legitimacy of a story that’s so vile and barbaric that I find it hard to believe that anyone could do it. If it turns out to be true I’d completely condemn it and would hope the perpetrators are hung."" That would be fair if not for the German girl, where there is clear video evidence of her seemingly lifeless naked body, limbs all broken, laying there face down with people kicking and spitting on her, the was no condemnation just a question from from you ""any proof she's been ""raped and murdered?' Can you not understand how callous that sounds? I can't see at that stage how it would make much difference in your mind of the sheer barbarity of it."

[Hammer and Pickle]

"The Netanyahu nutjob regime’s standing with the army has collapsed since the regime has been trying to gag the Supreme Court, hence the lack of communication and appropriate early military response to the Hamas attack. This is a basic fact you really have to take on board if you want to have any sort of credible view on this whole thing. So we have two culprits here. One is Hamas. And the other is the Israeli regime. But then this is only a football forum full of strangers so if being a one-eyed helmet is what floats your boat, it’s over to you."

[LeroysBoots]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-idf-general-likens-military-control-of-west-bank-to-nazi-germany/

[Mike Oxsaw]

"One West Ham fan throws a vape at an opposition player, so ALL West Ham fans are barred from going to Frieberg - is a risk we all take by tolerating such muppets among us. Likewise, a few Gazanians create mayhem, atrocity and murder away from home and the authorities mete out punishment - it's a risk the residents of Gaza take by tolerating members of Hamas to live amongst them. That risk gets too high then it needs to be reduced using the most appropriate method - unless, of course, you think Israel should simply man up and take one for the team/peace process."

[solidbond]

Former general in the Israeli military Amiram Levin has compared Israeli treatment of Palestinians to Nazi Germanys treatment of Jewish people. He also described Israel as “total apartheid”

[Side of Ham]

"Pickle can't keep his 'rationale' on this very football forum so ignore double standards cսnt..... collyrob, I understand what you were getting at and agree, and hope for the same outcome for those that actually did do it if true and it not just be any Palestinians.....this is where both sides are not good sides to be on."

[Lee Trundle]

"Is there some kind of line where killing innocent babies becomes easy to believe and that anyone could do it, collyrob? Or are you completely denying that any innocent children were deliberately targeted and killed? You've had a mare here by trying to be edgy and rile a few people up, I reckon."

[collyrob]

Mr Anon 12:17 Thu Oct 12 Re: Hamas attack Israel I think you want me to be this bad guy you can point your finger at. But I’ve absolutely shown no delight at all. I’ve questioned the legitimacy of a story that’s so vile and barbaric that I find it hard to believe that anyone could do it. If it turns out to be true I’d completely condemn it and would hope the perpetrators are hung.

[BRANDED]

Rules and Law based rational adults but there isnt much rationality in religious nut jobs.

[Hammer and Pickle]

"No need - all the UN has to do is learn how to read, keep an open mind and assume the basic responsibilities of a rational adult."

[LeroysBoots]

I'm really surprised that the UN don't start logging on here to solve all world problems as there are some who seem to know everything !!!

[Mr Anon]

"deanjcrawford 3:50 Thu Oct 12 Re: Hamas attack Israel Is collyrob supposed to be a cսnt because he supports Palestine? Don‚Äôt see anything wrong with that. No, It's the tone he dismisses the suffering of the innocent victims of a terror attack, most decent people have sympathy for the innocents both side of the fence, he can barely hide his delight at the violence"

[BRANDED]

"Good point. A quick search brings up as many references to it as the beheadings so, sure, take it with a pinch of salt. Heres one “ Dubai | Egyptian intelligence repeatedly told Israel that the situation in the Gaza Strip could “explode”, warnings that went unheeded before the deadly Hamas assault on the Jewish state, according to two officials familiar with the matter.” Now. In the book super predictors, they do say that intelligence services get so much of this stuff that it requires searching for a needle in a haystack. We can only assume Hamas did an incredible job of hiding it from some of the most sophisticated monitoring on Earth. 9/11 was as convenient as this in some respects. So you bringing it up was good."

[Kaiser Zoso]

"That’s about as believable as Jews not turning up for work on 9/11 It may be on record, but has it been confirmed by either Egypt or Israel, Brando?"

[BRANDED]

Its on record that Egypt warned them a few days before. This is in the nut job Israeli government.