The war in Ukraine

[Barty]

"I miss the ""is putin about to make a big mistake"" thread"

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

"'How is it a US proxy war when the Kremlin started it by occupying Ukrainian land and attempting regime change to prevent NATO and EU membership?' * sighs * Because it is by very definition. The US had involvement in Ukraine long before 2014. They have no direct (official) involvement, but like Boris talk of it's utmost importance and will fund it at any cost, despite the warnings of needless NATO expansion by people like George Keenan in the late 90's. https://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/02/opinion/foreign-affairs-now-a-word-from-x.html I certainly wouldn't suggest the CIA run Ukraine, but it's been openly reported how the CIA built an underground command centre and a spy network on the Russian border. Lastly, the suggestion I'm Alf Ghandi is as insane and pathetic as the rest of you're post."

[riosleftsock]

"Hammer and Pickle wrote... Regime change by the Putin would be terrible, far worse than the actual coup performed by the west a la colour revolution at the Maidan in 2014. Its not NATO membership, its not a club like the scouts or pioneer camp. It will mean US missiles based right next to Russia and Article 5 protection which would lead to ww3. Why did you suggest that the CIA runs the country? Its not like a former director became president ever,"

[riosleftsock]

"Hammer and Pickle wrote... Regime change by the Putin would be terrible, far worse than the actual coup performed by the west a la colour revolution at the Maidan in 2014. Its not NATO membership, its not a club like the scouts or pioneer camp. It will mean US missiles based right next to Russia and Article 5 protection which would lead to ww3. Why did you suggest that the CIA runs the country? Its not like a former director became president ever,"

[Hammer and Pickle]

"How is it a US proxy war when the Kremlin started it by occupying Ukrainian land and attempting regime change to prevent NATO and EU membership? You must believe the CIA effectively runs the country but that’s no surprise Alf Ghandi, is it. You’re a total moron, after all."

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

"Barty 6:16 Sat Apr 20 Funny that he and all those that promote this sentiment refuse to admit this is a US proxy war, that the has been agitated and prepared, for decades. The IMF have just projected Russia’s GDP growth to out perform any western nation next year, despite the sanctions and the EU’s efforts to steal frozen Russian assets to continue to fund Ukraine. To quote Col Kilgore. ‘Someday this war’s gonna end’"

[Hammer and Pickle]

"Goodness me mimmler - how gutted are you tonight? The GOP is split down the middle on a massive issue it could have blocked. Never mind, have a special pink crayon and go to bed."

[Barty]

49 billion pounds for Zelinsky to work with.

[mashed in maryland]

Articulate and persuasive article from our former PM there. He shows his work and seems committed and you've got to respect that. But why didn't he ever show the same passion for protecting our own borders that he does for Ukraine's?

[Barty]

The bill was passed

[Barty]

"BORIS JOHNSON: If Ukraine falls, it'll be a catastrophic turning point in history - and an utter humiliation for the West... Why the hell are we waiting to give this heroic nation the weapons it needs? But why the delay? What the hell has got into us? If the war in Ukraine ends in disaster then it will be for one reason only — because of the dithering, doddering drift of the West. Every month that we wait is a month in which more Ukrainian children are bombed and killed. Every week in which we fail to do the obvious — and give the Ukrainians the weapons they need — is a week in which Putin gets closer to his disgusting ambition, to torture a European country to death. Every day the pressure on the Ukrainians is growing — and yet the solution is within our grasp. We know what to do. We have done it before and we can easily do it again. When Ronald Reagan won the Cold War — with the staunch support of Margaret Thatcher — he succeeded because of the urgency and determination with which he confronted the problem. He could see, with total moral clarity, that the U.S. was engaged in a titanic struggle: between freedom and tyranny. So he came up with a solution that was made possible by the very economic freedom in which he believed. After years of Communist oppression in the Soviet Union, the United States had become so incomparably richer that he was able massively to outspend Moscow. He used the sheer throw-weight of American military spending to intimidate the Russians, force them to the negotiating table, and to begin a process that led to the break-up of the Soviet empire. For dozens of benighted populations, across eastern Europe and around the old Soviet Union, it was the dawn of freedom. When the Berlin Wall came down, it was the most joyous political moment of my lifetime. For hundreds of millions of people, it meant the end of the police state and the midnight knock on the door. It was an end to the terror of the Securitate and the Stasi, of children being paid to grass up their parents, and of people being sent to jail — in their thousands — simply because they had the courage to dissent from the Communist regime. It was a moment of total moral, economic and political triumph for Western ideas of freedom; and yet all those gains are now at risk. The world in 2024 is on a knife-edge, with a real risk that Western democracies are about to be humiliated, and autocracies emboldened around the world — because of our lassitude, our pathetic refusal to do what is necessary. Think back to what would have happened if — as so many experts predicted — Putin had succeeded in his blitzkrieg of February 2022. Think what would have happened if he had conquered the whole of Ukraine, including Kyiv. It would of have meant the end of Ukrainian democracy and the creation of a vassal state; and in order to ensure the obedience of the newly subjugated population Putin would have followed the hideous playbook he has used in those parts of Ukraine he has already captured: forced Russification, systematic murder of any who resist and the taking of Ukrainian children to Russia for brainwashing. Note how Putin runs his own country — shooting journalists, flagrantly murdering political opponents such as Alexei Navalny. That was so nearly the fate of the whole of Ukraine and the only reason it did not happen was that the Ukrainians disproved Putin’s own thesis, and fought like lions for the country they love. The reason they succeeded so spectacularly was that they had already been given crucial Western support, including anti-tank missiles from the U.S. and UK. Look what the Ukrainians have achieved, against the odds, with the weaponry we have so far given them. They have driven Putin out of more than 50 per cent of the territory he has occupied; they have incapacitated more than 40 per cent of the Black Sea Fleet; they have inflicted appalling casualties on Putin’s armed forces — more than 300,000 dead or injured. And yet we must also acknowledge that the cost to Ukraine has also been grave, and that cost is now mounting — completely unnecessarily — because we are failing to give them what they need. The shortage of shells on the Ukrainian front line is now so bad that sometimes they have to wait under Russian bombardment, unable to fire back. The shortage of air defences is now so acute that Kharkiv — the second city of Ukraine — is in danger of being turned into another Mariupol. Ukrainian power stations are being pulverised. The Ukrainians used to be able to intercept 90 per cent of incoming missiles. Now we are starving them, for reasons I do not understand, of the protective shields they need. There are about 100 Patriot systems dotted around Europe, doing nothing. Why? If this goes on — the constant Russian bombardment, the under-supply of the Ukrainians — then there is a real risk that Putin will be able to mount some kind of break-out this summer and drive his armour, once again, to Kyiv. What will that mean, after all we have told the Ukrainians — that we will ‘have their backs for as long as it takes?’ Let us be clear, that if Ukraine falls, it will be not only a disaster for that innocent country. It will be a total humiliation for the West — the first time in the 75 years of Nato’s existence that this hitherto successful alliance has been utterly routed — and on European soil. A defeat for Ukraine would usher in a new era of fear in the whole Euro-Atlantic area, as Putin continues his drive to rebuild the Soviet empire: from the Baltics to Georgia to Moldova to Central Asia to the Arctic. It will be a terrifying moment for the people of Taiwan and the clearest possible signal to China that the West has lost the willpower to protect democracy. It will be a turning point in history, the moment when the West finally loses its post-war hegemony, the moment when borders everywhere are suddenly up for grabs and aggression is seen to pay — and all because of a failure to stand up for Ukraine. What is so infuriating about this slowly unfurling catastrophe is that we can so easily avert it. We have it in our power to give the Ukrainians what they need: not just the $60billion package of assistance that I hope and believe the U.S. Congress will shortly approve. The Germans could and should give the Taurus missiles, and we could all give and do much, much more. We could easily give Ukraine the long range artillery to take out the communications between Russia and Crimea and cause Putin serious strategic problems. Why aren’t we doing it? This time the advantage of the West is even bigger than it was in the Cold War. The Nato economies are about 30 times the size of Russia. If we get a grip now and start seriously manufacturing the munitions the Ukrainians need, then we can not only fix the problem of Ukraine — we can drive jobs and growth in our own countries. It is time for the West, including Britain, to snap out of our sleep-walk; to recover the spirit of Reagan and Thatcher and invest in the defence of our freedoms. The simplest and most cost-effective way to defend freedom is to invest now in the defence of Ukraine. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-13301849/BORIS-JOHNSON-waiting-Ukraine-weapons-needs.html"

[mashed in maryland]

"They're just looting the treasury. Couldn't be any more obvious at this point. None of them give a shit about Ukraine. Start a war, rinse taxpayers, money filters back to rulers and their mates. Winning or losing said war is irrelevant."

[Nutsin]

"Yeah looks like the US tax payer is gonna be on the hook for another $100 billion. What a fucking nightmare. Just had the 3rd print in a row of higher than expected inflation numbers which mean even higher interest rates. Fucking debt is now costing more than a Trillion a year in interest payments…. This is gonna end badly, the US debt is about to explode. We are all gonna end up a lot poorer."

[Barty]

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/us-house-speaker-supports-ukraine-bill--announces-new--axis

[Barty]

"Today we find out if the US congress passes ""the support for Ukraine bill"""

[Hammer and Pickle]

Case closed. Zelensky has totally skewered the GOP nutjobs blocking support for Ukraine in Congress.

[riosleftsock]

"Gopnik Buy a camera, take a picture of yourself and show it to children in your village, warn them of the danger of becoming an idiot. They will thank you and probably name a local samogan after you."

[threesixty]

"Apparently the reason the USA, UK etc shot down the drones from Iran is simply because Israel has nukes and Ukraine doesn’t. The idea being if Israel is seriously damaged by anyone and feels suitably threatened (pretty likely with Iran) then they are more likely to use a nuke. Which brings the allies into a situation they really do not need. Whereas Ukraine has fuck all. The lesson of the last 2 yrs is simple. Everyone needs nuclear weapons because you are literally fucked without them. I feel that the cost of America not defending Ukraine and Ukraine losing will be nuclear proliferation all over the place."

[Hammer and Pickle]

You have absolutely no factual basis to say Biden and those you mention regard Ukraine as a proxy. And that post was just hilariously weak.

[riosleftsock]

"It was an idiotic question, because he's an actor/comedian, not a statesman. The US public are not the mainstream legacy media or the DNC. Maybe the US public do see Ukraine as an ally, but Biden, Nuland, Blinken, and Obama's other useful idiots see them as a proxy. I assume you were too far in your cups to read the link to the Rand Corp document I posted up?"

[Hammer and Pickle]

"Exactly why I think it was such a good question - it forces wankers like you to reveal your true hand, and I think the US public will see Ukraine as much more an ally than a proxy."

[riosleftsock]

Gopnik Elenskiy is just learning the difference between a proxy and an ally. Unfortunately for millions of ukrainians.

[Barty]

Because the bible says the jews will return ti ?çsrael and rule their again Thats what the israelis believe and why the USA supports them in whatever they do It is a time travelling plan possibly Or you could say they are no better tan the Taliban and ISIS.

[Dwight Van Mann]

I see Tuesday Boozeday is still a thing at BENCH

[Dwight Van Mann]

I see Tuesday Boozeday is still a thing at BENCH

[Hammer and Pickle]

Zelensky poses a very good question when he asks if Iranian drones and missiles fired at Israel are somehow more worthy of a US response than those his country has been having to put up with for years now.