The Next West Ham Manager.

[THUNDERCLINT]

Well, El Flop needs fucking off tonight.

Sergio Conceicao isn't working, worth a go?

[mallard]

Fat Frank??!!!


I fucking give up with football 

[Takashi Miike]

A monkey hanging cսnt, that hates the West Ham fans, should now be listened to regarding the next manager appointment?

[Ladysmith]

Jeff Stelling is of the opinion that we should give Frank Lampard the job.

Totally agree with Jeff!

Can we ban this idiot (Ladyboy) from posting - clearly trolling the site with its crap!!!!!

Just because my opinion is different to yours - grow up!

[BillyJenningsBoots]

Jeff Stelling is of the opinion that we should give Frank Lampard the job.

Totally agree with Jeff!

Can we ban this idiot (Ladyboy) from posting - clearly trolling the site with its crap!!!!!

[stubbo-admin]

Great write up re Sullivan 

Care to articulate why Sullivan can NEVER get the striker situation right ?

 

 

IMO it's because he can't evaluate the requirement.  He's like a magpie, with Rumpelstiltskin in his ear (his agent pals).

He gets blinded by the wrong stats (goals scored...like with Ings), clubs played for, former glories, etc.

What he doesn't do is understand the type of chances we create, or the way in which our strikers need to operate...our successful strikers since I've been supporting West Ham (Bonds/Redknapp days) have mostly been the strikers that can carry the attack on their own if need be.

But, having said all of that...picking successful strikers is really difficult.  They need supply, they need to fit the side's pattern of play, in a team like West Ham they need to contribute in the build up as well as being on the end of things, as well as making goals for themselves.  It's a tall ask frankly.

If you look at the strikers that have done well for us in 'recent' times, 4 arrived under Sullivan* (although two not as strikers)

- Arnautovic*
- Antonio*
- Di Canio
- Kanoute
- Demba Ba*
- Tevez
- Ashton
- Sakho (for about half a season)*

They were all powerful players, able to pull out wide and hold the ball up, to carry the attack on their own, with pace/strength (Di Canio the outlier here, but his skill and trickery made up for it).

But it's hard as signing 'proven' strikers in their prime is very expensive (look at Solanke to Spurs for an example), frought with danger (Man Utd dont have one, Arsenal don't...Jesus is hit and miss, so is Havertz, Liverpool rely on Salah despite going big on Nunez, Chelsea have been looking since Costa). And price is no guarantee of success as they also have to fit the way you play, and since we've often lacked a pattern of play, finding a striker to be the 'finisher' to a team move is also hard....hence our most succesful have been mavericks that can 'do it on their own', as opposed to real finishers like Hernandez.  I maintain we'd have made Aguero hopeless if in our side.

Sullivan also hates a gamble that to him doesn't feel cheap. He can't evaluate potential and always wants a 'sure' thing.  He has a horrible appetite for risk ironicaly. He wants proven at a bargain price....which means injury prone or on the decline...and his agents know that so they Razzle Dazzle with with players whose best days are behind them. 

But as I say, strikers are difficult, especially if you're strying to stretch a budget across about 7 players. 

In fairness I actually think he got it 'right' when he signed Scamacca and Haller.  Both excellent strikers...we just had a manager who couldn't utilise that type of player...They'd both have been ideal for Lopetegui, and both subsequently proved their capabilities when moving away from West Ham.

[claypole]

Is Cottee currently the boards stooge? I heard him on the radio earlier saying that Lopetegui wasn't the best choice for the job.

[Ladysmith]

Jeff Stelling is of the opinion that we should give Frank Lampard the job.

Totally agree with Jeff!

[LeroysBoots]

Great write up re Sullivan 

Care to articulate why Sullivan can NEVER get the striker situation right ?

[stubbo-admin]

Fuck me, Stubbo. That is the best post I have ever read on Sullivan and why we will no progress under him. Well done. Heartfelt and articulate. A brilliant read. Can you please on Talksport and repeat that to Jim White by any chance?

Ha like Talksport would let you get on and present your case without interruption. 

Not what they're there for.  Thanks for the thoughts on it though (and making your way through it...was a long one!).

[Russ of the BML]

Fuck me, Stubbo. That is the best post I have ever read on Sullivan and why we will no progress under him. Well done. Heartfelt and articulate. A brilliant read. Can you please on Talksport and repeat that to Jim White by any chance?

[Hammer and Pickle]

Sullivan would have to be convinced he is a visionary and a great leader to sack so early

[southbankbornnbred]

He wouldn't be in my top three 'perfect' choices - that would mean buying people out of contracts. But given that he's unemployed and ticks all of Sullivan's boxes - and, culturally, would share a more northern European football philosophy with Steidten - I'd sack Lopetegui and appoint Terzic tomorrow. He's far better suited, tactically, to the key players we have and would like to keep: Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta, Summerville etc.

Although Paqueta is out of form and, I presume, worried about his future.

Terzic is also better suited to the culture of this club and its fans. I think he 'gets' us (as would other managers).

[southbankbornnbred]

that would then open the door for Moyes Mk3, the little midget cսnt's ultimate kick in the bollocks, bringing back the jock fraud

Jim White exclusive interview "I never wanted to get rid of David, the fans forced me to"

Well he has a point, toxic fans hounded Moyes out
Most fans of other clubs couldn't believe our fans slagging off Moyes

Moyes had run his race 12 months earlier. It was only toxic because Sullivan (and maybe the board collectively) had allowed it to become that way.

Moyes plus Steidten was clearly never going to work. Moyes in the transfer market was totally impotent and unimaginative when it came to players in. If he'd had his way we'd currently have on long contracts:

- Maguire
- Phillips
- McTominay

But what he was good at was butchering the guys he decided didn't suit his purpose: Benrahma, Kehrer, Fornals, Scammacca...all contributing players he to all intents and purposes ostracised through non-inclusion.

Performances were off a cliff. The defence was in bits. And results followed. 

So he wasn't hounded out. He created a situation where what he was doing was unsustainable alongside the board creating a situation where he couldn't succeed. It was a perfect shitstorm and he had to go, and the fans could see it. 

Not one fan was calling for his head in that 18 month golden period before the wheels started to come off when we played smart, counterattacking football...but it slowly but surely went rancid, and us being in a state now doesn't change the fact that's is what happened and his time was up.

Sullivan knew it, but didn't want the bad 'optics' so let us get to a place where he could blame fan unrest for it, by offering Moyes a gig he knew he could never accept.

We all know it. Sullivan is an odious toad of a man. You only have to read the thread from a while back about the woman who raised the police complaint against him.

We've all seen it. He lies and manipulates to defect blame away from himself, whilst being fully aware of what he is scheming to achieve. It's calculated. He's not a bumbling fool...just a horrible little asshole.

As for his cosy relationship with Salthouse and the like. Can you even imagine the smoke those guys are blowing up his arse to curry favour with him. Sickening 

But back to the original point. Moyes was done long before it went toxic. The cup final win created an uncomfortable truth for Sullivan knowing he needed to go but not prepared to be optically the bad guy after that win. The rot had set in 18 months before that around Xmas time when we were about 4th in the league and never really recovered but Moyes limped on to the end of that Conference League season. That he then got a other full season was insanity.

And now we have Lopetegui...and what he's doing simply isn't working. Even when the players can pull his plan together we're not creating good chances. I want to back him and want him to succeed, but this 'knock it about slowly at the back, let the oppo organise, then pump it into the channels' approach is doomed to failure. It simply doesn't use our attacking players strenghs:

- Paqueta...through balls to runners
- Bowen...running in behind the full back
- Kudus...ball carrying into space
- Antonio...pulling out wide and outmuscling in the space between fullback and centre back
- Summerville...looks like Bowen on the other side

Our current approach doesn't suit these players. We setup in a way that gives them no space in behind. They're players that are dangerous in transition of possession or with space to run into on the turn.

But now it's over to Sullivan and the usual story is playing out: Must win games; Fully support the manager BUT; Games to save his job etc. The slow death by a thousand cuts which is the Sullivan way...let it get to the point where he's compelled to act, and can say it wasn't his choice but he had to listen to everyone else.

He's building the toxic environment again. Letting the fans turn on the manager. Waiting for the players to show unrest.  He can see it's not working already, and knows inside it's not working, but to act now is to admit he fucked up and that's not a narrative he wants. So we watch Lopetegui die slowly...whole Sullivan waits for the moment he can say, "it wasn't me. We wanted him to do well. We backed him with money. We did what the fans wanted. We tried."

And to those saying he's had "investment". We had a net spend of 80m (about 3 or 4 decent players) plus got Todibo on the never never. He inherited a squad that had a meaningful base of:

Areola
Fabianski (clinging on)
Mavropanos (just about)
Alvarez
Soucek
Kudus
Bowen
Antonio (clinging on)
Paqueta (under a massive mental cloud)

9 squad worthy meaningful players to build a squad of 25!  That there is the joint Sullivan/Moyes legacy.  The squad needed 200m plus spending on it. It had been cut to the quick. 

Investnent is year-on-year improvement and renewal. But that's not the Sullivan way either. Look what he did to Bilic in the post-Upton Park season: cheap imports....Feghouli, Tore, that clown CM from Germany.  We had a good season...he doesn't invest off the back of it but sits on his laurels, allows a decline, doesn't invest as loses faith, let's it all go to shit, offers up a 'war chest' to the new guy to try and resurrect a dying beast, and the cycle perpetuates. Only this time he's not getting the first season appointment bounce which he had under Bilic, Pellegrini, Moyes etc. Its the Avram Grant season again.

Fuck that's a long post. Good luck anyone that reads it.

​​​​​​

 

 

Great post, that, Stubbo.

Insightful and very hard to take issue with most of that. A few little things I disagree with, but we all see certain things differently, don't we? Put 100 fans in a room and you'll get 100 analyses of the problems, strengths etc.

But I would say you've nailed that.

Your point about many current players not being Lopetegui-type players is spot on. And it's another reason why I think Terzic (given Sullivan't obsession with unemployed managers) suits where we are with certain key players: Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta (for however long it lasts), Summerville, AWB etc. All far better suited to playing the way somebody like Terzic (and not just him: there are plenty of other options) plays.

I would only add that Lopetegui's start has been so appalling that there are also other reasons for it. It's not "just" that people who support him think he's a Latino-style possession-based coach. His tactics are also just structurally terrible - even if he had the players he really wanted for six years. That weird thing he does with the zonal full-backs will never work in the Premier League - and he must surely see it. At least, it will never make you a top-half Premier League side. Because he just gifts space and possession to opponents deep into our half. Do that for 90 minutes against any Premier League side outside the strugglers, and you will pay the price.

As I've said before (sorry to sound like a scratched record), football management is definitely a case of horses for courses. For many reasons, Lopetegui is perfectly unsuited to West Ham. In terms of the culture of the club and its fans, and in terms of the current playing staff - many of whom (Bowen, Kudus etc) we all want to keep.

It's nothing persona with Lopeteguil. I just think he was a terrible, terrible appointment with little forethought going into it. He'd probably do well at a mid-ranking La Liga side. But that's another world.

[Swiss.]

Good post Stubbo. You can add Haller, Fornals and Benrahma to the list of who Moyes fucked off and the failure signings of Ings and Hughill

[stubbo-admin]

stubbo basically nails it.

As pretty much the whole PL has already noticed, our problem with Lotepegui is we have the players for a fast transition but he won’t use them properly because he is wedded to the slow, possession based build up. This creates far to few chances because defences have all the time in the world to organise and, when the move breaks down we’re left massively exposed, hence the bookings and discipline problems emerging now.

I’d say Lotepegui has one game left to show he can change his whole approach and get a performance out of the players at his disposal.

For Lopetegui to be successful he needs to somehow bait the opposition to come higher rather than sit deep when we have the ball, creating the space in behind for us to utilise. 

Moyes approach was to give them the ball, retreat passively, and hope to win it back deep in our half. Teams are too good for that when given that amount of unchallenged possession.

But Lopetegui 'could' make this work if his slow patient build up could tempt the opponent out...give them the appetite to press us higher, and be good enough to then play through that press with the ball in behind. He has the CBs playing the diagonals into the channels, but it's typically with the opposition sat deep still so ineffective.

Somehow he needs to have possession, draw them onto us more, let the oppo push up higher, and then play the long ball...it probably means play up through the middle, draw the man, work backwards as the oppo press up, then hit the diagonal into the channel with space (at a guess). 

But however it happens, if he doesn't find a way to create space in behind with us having the ball deeper, before playing the direct pass our forwards thrive on, he's toast.

[Hammer and Pickle]

stubbo basically nails it.

As pretty much the whole PL has already noticed, our problem with Lotepegui is we have the players for a fast transition but he won’t use them properly because he is wedded to the slow, possession based build up. This creates far to few chances because defences have all the time in the world to organise and, when the move breaks down we’re left massively exposed, hence the bookings and discipline problems emerging now.

I’d say Lotepegui has one game left to show he can change his whole approach and get a performance out of the players at his disposal.

[stubbo-admin]

that would then open the door for Moyes Mk3, the little midget cսnt's ultimate kick in the bollocks, bringing back the jock fraud

Jim White exclusive interview "I never wanted to get rid of David, the fans forced me to"

Well he has a point, toxic fans hounded Moyes out
Most fans of other clubs couldn't believe our fans slagging off Moyes

Moyes had run his race 12 months earlier. It was only toxic because Sullivan (and maybe the board collectively) had allowed it to become that way.

Moyes plus Steidten was clearly never going to work. Moyes in the transfer market was totally impotent and unimaginative when it came to players in. If he'd had his way we'd currently have on long contracts:

- Maguire
- Phillips
- McTominay

But what he was good at was butchering the guys he decided didn't suit his purpose: Benrahma, Kehrer, Fornals, Scammacca...all contributing players he to all intents and purposes ostracised through non-inclusion.

Performances were off a cliff. The defence was in bits. And results followed. 

So he wasn't hounded out. He created a situation where what he was doing was unsustainable alongside the board creating a situation where he couldn't succeed. It was a perfect shitstorm and he had to go, and the fans could see it. 

Not one fan was calling for his head in that 18 month golden period before the wheels started to come off when we played smart, counterattacking football...but it slowly but surely went rancid, and us being in a state now doesn't change the fact that's is what happened and his time was up.

Sullivan knew it, but didn't want the bad 'optics' so let us get to a place where he could blame fan unrest for it, by offering Moyes a gig he knew he could never accept.

We all know it. Sullivan is an odious toad of a man. You only have to read the thread from a while back about the woman who raised the police complaint against him.

We've all seen it. He lies and manipulates to defect blame away from himself, whilst being fully aware of what he is scheming to achieve. It's calculated. He's not a bumbling fool...just a horrible little asshole.

As for his cosy relationship with Salthouse and the like. Can you even imagine the smoke those guys are blowing up his arse to curry favour with him. Sickening 

But back to the original point. Moyes was done long before it went toxic. The cup final win created an uncomfortable truth for Sullivan knowing he needed to go but not prepared to be optically the bad guy after that win. The rot had set in 18 months before that around Xmas time when we were about 4th in the league and never really recovered but Moyes limped on to the end of that Conference League season. That he then got a other full season was insanity.

And now we have Lopetegui...and what he's doing simply isn't working. Even when the players can pull his plan together we're not creating good chances. I want to back him and want him to succeed, but this 'knock it about slowly at the back, let the oppo organise, then pump it into the channels' approach is doomed to failure. It simply doesn't use our attacking players strenghs:

- Paqueta...through balls to runners
- Bowen...running in behind the full back
- Kudus...ball carrying into space
- Antonio...pulling out wide and outmuscling in the space between fullback and centre back
- Summerville...looks like Bowen on the other side

Our current approach doesn't suit these players. We setup in a way that gives them no space in behind. They're players that are dangerous in transition of possession or with space to run into on the turn.

But now it's over to Sullivan and the usual story is playing out: Must win games; Fully support the manager BUT; Games to save his job etc. The slow death by a thousand cuts which is the Sullivan way...let it get to the point where he's compelled to act, and can say it wasn't his choice but he had to listen to everyone else.

He's building the toxic environment again. Letting the fans turn on the manager. Waiting for the players to show unrest.  He can see it's not working already, and knows inside it's not working, but to act now is to admit he fucked up and that's not a narrative he wants. So we watch Lopetegui die slowly...whole Sullivan waits for the moment he can say, "it wasn't me. We wanted him to do well. We backed him with money. We did what the fans wanted. We tried."

And to those saying he's had "investment". We had a net spend of 80m (about 3 or 4 decent players) plus got Todibo on the never never. He inherited a squad that had a meaningful base of:

Areola
Fabianski (clinging on)
Mavropanos (just about)
Alvarez
Soucek
Kudus
Bowen
Antonio (clinging on)
Paqueta (under a massive mental cloud)

9 squad worthy meaningful players to build a squad of 25!  That there is the joint Sullivan/Moyes legacy.  The squad needed 200m plus spending on it. It had been cut to the quick. 

Investnent is year-on-year improvement and renewal. But that's not the Sullivan way either. Look what he did to Bilic in the post-Upton Park season: cheap imports....Feghouli, Tore, that clown CM from Germany.  We had a good season...he doesn't invest off the back of it but sits on his laurels, allows a decline, doesn't invest as loses faith, let's it all go to shit, offers up a 'war chest' to the new guy to try and resurrect a dying beast, and the cycle perpetuates. Only this time he's not getting the first season appointment bounce which he had under Bilic, Pellegrini, Moyes etc. Its the Avram Grant season again.

Fuck that's a long post. Good luck anyone that reads it.

​​​​​​

[XKhammer]

that would then open the door for Moyes Mk3, the little midget cսnt's ultimate kick in the bollocks, bringing back the jock fraud

Jim White exclusive interview "I never wanted to get rid of David, the fans forced me to"

Well he has a point, toxic fans hounded Moyes out
Most fans of other clubs couldn't believe our fans slagging off Moyes

[southbankbornnbred]

From what I can see, the reason why many Dortmund fans whinged about Terzic was because he played a counter-attacking game against Bayern and Bayer Leverkusen (which is like Arsenal whining that they counter-attacked against Man City and/or Liverpool). Both sides finished above them, and were on a different level to Dortmund in the league last season - partly because Dortmund lost one of Europe's best talents.

I read an interesting analysis last autumn saying that about a third of the way through last season, only Bayern (around 64% average possession) averaged more possession than Dortmund (around 62%). He didn't seem to park the bus against average sides they should beat. That's not really Moyes-style: he parked the bus at home to Palace and they still beat us easily!

It's all about opinions, innit. I'd take the German-Croat above Lopetegui - and would have done so over the summer.

[southbankbornnbred]

Go on a Dortmund site. Read what their fans had to say. The cup run they had papered over the cracks. And don’t even get them on choke on the final day of the season. But it’s all of little consequence. Sullivan will have him on a very short leash.

Yeah, but as I say: Dortmund's fans expect to be top two or three every season. They're a huge club in Germany. But they don't half fucking whine on at times - like Arsenal fans (remember they whinged like hell about Emery and look at him at Villa).

Being realistic, we don't have the same expectations. Plus, I defy any team to lose top-class playing talent like Bellingham and not be effected by it the following season. Look what happened when we lost Rice last season.

As I say, Terzic would not be my ideal appointment. In a world where we'd buy managers out of contract, I'd go for several others. But, genuinely, I think there are a few myths and whinges doing the rounds about him. My gut feeling is that he'd fit in at West Ham, with the right staff around him. He's the sort of manager who would take our club to heart. I have to say I can't every see Lopetegui being "West Ham" to his core.

[RBshorty]

Go on a Dortmund site. Read what their fans had to say. The cup run they had papered over the cracks. And don’t even get them on choke on the final day of the season. But it’s all of little consequence. Sullivan will have him on a very short leash.

[southbankbornnbred]

Serious question: Why is he the German Moyes?

When did a Moyes side regularly have 60% possession against Premier League sides?

I suspect a lot of people criticising Terzic’s tactics have probably rarely seen his teams play.

He’s by no means the perfect appointment. But he’s probably a far better fit for West Ham than Lopetegui. He can communicate with the players, for starters: his English is better than most English managers! That might be a low bar - but Lopetegui is genuinely struggling with communication - by his own admission.

Plus, Terzic plays a pretty standard 4-2-3-1 (4-2-1-3 on the front foot) which most players will comprehend and respond to.

And, let’s be honest, Sullivan is not going to spend big money paying off a seriously bad appointment and then pay a small fortune to buy somebody like Frank etc out of a contract. It’ll be an unemployed manager - like Terzic or Potter.

[RBshorty]

Great. The German Moyes is in the building. Won’t matter a jot. It will be Salthouse cast offs. And the Glorious Leader contented with 17th.! 

NEXT LEVEL……

[southbankbornnbred]

Terzic is the most realistic appointment we’d make.

Unemployed, knows the Prem (albeit not managed here), big league/club experience. So he ticks Sullivan’s boxes.

He wouldn’t be my perfect choice, but we won’t buy a manager out of contract while we have Sullivan. In those circumstances, I think Terzic is the best option for us.

For starters, he’s an excellent communicator in English. On a different level to Lopetegui. The players would know exactly what he wants.

There’s also a bit of myth about Terzic’s playing style. In his final season, his Dortmund team often had more than 60% possession against most sides. It was just against Bayern and a couple of other dangerous teams that he got defensive - and the fans didn’t like it. 

But that’s because Dortmund expect to be top two or top three every season in Germany. So their players and fans expect them to be on the front foot almost all of the time. We don’t have quite those expectations.

I’d settle for a manager who consistently gets after the likes of Crystal Palace, Fulham, Brentford and even Villa, and doesn’t park the bus against them like Moyes did at times - even if it means we’re going to play counter-attacking stuff against the likes of Man City and Liverpool.

One reason why people think Terzic is a park the bus merchant was Hummels’ hissy fit. But the guy’s always been a bit of a twat, was slowing down in his mid-30s and struggling. So his own performances were not great - and he took it out on Terzic a bit.

Terzic is not perfect. But I’d take him above Lopetegui. I think he’d fit this club.

[RBshorty]

Been watching the Bubble on YT. I’ve had to turn it off. Fucking hell his tongue is firmly wedge in between the Glorious Leader buttocks.!  I wouldn’t be surprised if he endorsed Fat Frank.

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