Lopetegui (sacked 8.1.2025)

[maverick180]

I was thoroughly looking forward to the start of this season

Was also prepared that things might take some time and wasn't expecting miracles over night What I didn't expect was a manager who after spending 6 weeks with the total dross he'd been left by Moyes would deem them fit to start in a premier league game And low and behold all of them played absolute shit

We're now 1 game in and none of our new players are any closer to bedding in or learning anything from their new team mates cos they barely spent a second on the pitch, half of them not at all I think it's gonna take somewhere between 6-10 games before we see the team anyone with an ounce of sense would play cos this bloke can't identify shit when he see's it I thought we was handed a miracle at half time when we went in level and low and behold he changed nothing I'm sure people are gonna make excuses for him and say it's too early to judge

But from what I've just seen today, this cսnt is David Moyes in a mission impossible mask

[Massive Attack]

I think it's possible not definite, as when we played Bournemouth in the Cup, we beat them 1-0 when he 1st played Wan-Bissaka at Left Back and he was excellent. I can fully understand why he'd play him there again as he already proved he could do it well against them. But if he sticks with Wan-Bissaka art right back hopefully whilst he's playing so well there, then Cresswell should be starting now he's back fit and available. Scarles might come on to replace him 2nd half. Both Scarles and Mayers were on the bench vs Arsenal.

[Lee Trundle]

We have a large Squad again thankfully with competition in virtually every position and we haven't suffered badly with injuries. Our back-ups arent going to be too happy see rookies selected before they get on the pitch at the start of the season. It's generally been the odd 1 or 2 out most of the time. We also got knocked out the Cup early so we've less chance to play any kids yet. But he has had them on the bench numerous times which indicates he will turn to them if he needs too. 

It will happen when it's the right time. Possibly at Bournemouth we might see Scarles come off the bench as Cresswell might start whilst Emerson serves his 1 match ban.

You're much more confident than me he'll play a left back at left back.

I reckon he'll go with 2 right backs with AWB on the left.  I'd be hugely surprised if Scarles gets any minutes against Bournemouth.

[Massive Attack]

We have a large Squad again thankfully with competition in virtually every position and we haven't suffered badly with injuries. Our back-ups arent going to be too happy see rookies selected before they get on the pitch at the start of the season. It's generally been the odd 1 or 2 out most of the time. We also got knocked out the Cup early so we've less chance to play any kids yet. But he has had them on the bench numerous times which indicates he will turn to them if he needs too. 

It will happen when it's the right time. Possibly at Bournemouth we might see Scarles come off the bench as Cresswell might start whilst Emerson serves his 1 match ban.

[Lee Trundle]

My issue with directly comparing those stats to Moyes is the length of time isn't at all the same and it will make a difference. Those Lopetegui stats were before the game which ended up as another win, another 54% possession and so on. Based on Moyes 19 games comparison, Lopetegui still has another 4 matches to add to his tally - Bournemouth, Brighton, Southampton, Liverpool. Sky were being disingenuous and it isn't surprising with the media love-in towards Moyes being 1 of their old guard manager favourites down the years.

Not that stats alone tells the whole story either when you actually compare both their styles of play being very different now on the eye. 

And what's encouraging to me is Moyes way was maxed out whereas Lopetegui's only just starting and continually improves game on game as the season progresses. 

God knows how we can get rid of a load of old players, spend £150m and then reduce the playing age by 2 days.

I thought Sky started to talk about our 2023 Youth Cup winning team but I was watching it on my phone on the train and it cut off then.  I hope they did.  It's tragic how none of them are having any game time with us.

[Massive Attack]

My issue with directly comparing those stats to Moyes is the length of time isn't at all the same and it will make a difference. Those Lopetegui stats were before the game which ended up as another win, another 54% possession and so on. Based on Moyes 19 games comparison, Lopetegui still has another 4 matches to add to his tally - Bournemouth, Brighton, Southampton, Liverpool.

Sky were being disingenuous and it isn't surprising with the media love-in towards Moyes being 1 of their old guard manager favourites down the years. Make no mistake, all the media are desperate for Lopetegui to fail just so they can turn around and say we told you so, "be careful what you wish for"..

Not that stats alone tells the whole story either when you actually compare both their styles of play being very different now on the eye. 

And what's encouraging to me is Moyes way was maxed out whereas Lopetegui's only just starting and continually improves game on game as the season progresses. 

[Lee Trundle]

Took me a while, but I found the STATS of the style of play bewtween the end of Moyes vs Lopetegui.




As I said, there's improvements, but not drastic ones (yet).  The bottom STAT annoys me considering we've spent £150m.

[Massive Attack]

I even like the fact we ain't afraid to mix it up and go long if they feel it's necessary, keeping it varied. But the volume is drastically different and a much long overdue welcome improvement in our game.

Long gone are the days where we'd religiously have only 25% possession of the ball camped in our own half chasing shadows. Now it's at least double that and it's usually quality passages of passing too since the Newcastle game.

Hopefully they can keep it up for the rest of the season bar the occasional game it doesn't quite work out which is to to be expected in the Premier League.

Just need to tighten our defence and cut out the silly individual errors and be far more clinical in front of goal. I'm hoping we go in to the transfer window for at least 1 of those issues, be it a top level Goal Keeper or a fit and lethal Striker. Knowing Sully it'll be a  new 16 year contract awarded to 59yo Fabianski and a 10 year extension to Antonio instead..

[Lee Trundle]

Trundle... what are you watching... our possession, passing and build up play is incomparable to last season... we look like we want the ball and can pass it around. I know stats are subjective but again possession, shots and passes are a million miles better.. I agree with you we are not better off wins, defensively and table position wise but you cant say we havent improve in our overall game play..

 

Sky showed a graphic on Monday night that shows we've barely improved in the way we've play.

Incomparable is a massive overstatement, IMO.  I'm not saying we haven't improved.  I'm saying the improvement is minimal.

Oh a sky graphic.... shows us it then..

Nah, I can see there's little point with you if I did.

[scott_d]

I agree.

It did not take a genius to work out that punting the ball up field from the back 4 and goalkeeper often led to us losing the ball either immediately or from lack of pressing and pushing for the second phase/knock-downs etc.

It used to drive me mad that basically any time we used to hoof it long, we were basically conceding possession because we'd often hand the ball straight back to the opposition.

There is a definite improvement in this and it shows in our possession stats.

It's quite simple really but obviously you then need to coach the team what to do if they are NOT hoofing it long.

[Massive Attack]

I'm pretty sure our build up at the back is deliberately slow...designed to draw the press, and in the process create space to play through it and move the opposition out of position.

It's ironic really. We all want our teams to press, and at the same time we have managers leveraging the opposition's press to try and exploit the space it leaves.

 

 

That's the conclusion I came too as well when figuring out what the idea of it was, as well as protecting the ball not gifting it away easily like launching it long like we used too. It's very rare we go long now. Under Moyes it used to get regularly pumped up field from either Dawsons or Aguerds boot with low percentage chance of winning it.

The only time we really take risks with possession of the ball now is when nearer their final third of the pitch. There's a lot of quality work going on in the middle of the park and well worth paying attention to it as it's quality well drilled play.

Newcastle was the game when it really began clicking well like that and in the Leicester and Wolves games I'm seeing it again regularly. You can tell it's well coached.

[BillyJenningsBoots]

None of our players have improved under him, have they?

So I have no idea where you're seeing an improvement in the way we play.  We still stink out the place from the defence that still leaks goals, to a midfield that still can't control the game, to a forward line that barely scores any goals.

Trundle... what are you watching... our possession, passing and build up play is incomparable to last season... we look like we want the ball and can pass it around. I know stats are subjective but again possession, shots and passes are a million miles better.. I agree with you we are not better off wins, defensively and table position wise but you cant say we havent improve in our overall game play..

 

Sky showed a graphic on Monday night that shows we've barely improved in the way we've play.

Incomparable is a massive overstatement, IMO.  I'm not saying we haven't improved.  I'm saying the improvement is minimal.

Oh a sky graphic.... shows us it then..

[stubbo-admin]

I'm pretty sure our build up at the back is deliberately slow...designed to draw the press, and in the process create space to play through it and move the opposition out of position.

It's ironic really. We all want our teams to press, and at the same time we have managers leveraging the opposition's press to try and exploit the space it leaves.

[Massive Attack]

We are missing a finisher but as I and others bore on about our key problem is now central midfield.  If you want to have a cutting edge you need pace and power in there for fast transitions, lots of movement creating openings and of course being able to cope with teams that press and counter at speed.  Our build up is too slow and we lack the "legs" to do it well and its why we are so brittle or vulnerable to teams who press well and have players breaking thru midfield etc. 



 

That's not quite right. Where I agree the initial build up play at the back can be slow, the middle third and attacking third it really isn't and we've continously carved open quick 1 touch chance after chance since Newcastle. It seems to be a Lopetegui characteristic of his Teams to make sure of keeping hold of the ball first before being sure of playing it quicker in the middle of the park. But once they feel confident enough in doing so when bringing the ball forward from the back, the passes are invariably snappy and quick well drilled passages of play. It's happening quite often now they'll be a triangle of players who play it into each other's feet 1 touch before finally taking the ball into the opposions box.

And our Midfield bar Arsenal 1st half has been working well since Newcastle including the improved Soucek and Soler who's really coming in to his own now more recently dictating play. With cameos from Paqueta and Alvarez we have looked good in that department recently winning the ball back and then playing it forward confidently. 

We are looking a lot more fluid in our play, it's just ironing out the silly mistakes defensively but I feel that will come the more they get used to it. 

[Lee Trundle]

Not desperate, just saying it how it is. Ive also said I'd be well happy if Allegri took us over, if we are going to make a change. Unfortunately he doesn't want to come until the Summer.

None of our players have improved under him, have they?

So I have no idea where you're seeing an improvement in the way we play.  We still stink out the place from the defence that still leaks goals, to a midfield that still can't control the game, to a forward line that barely scores any goals.

Trundle... what are you watching... our possession, passing and build up play is incomparable to last season... we look like we want the ball and can pass it around. I know stats are subjective but again possession, shots and passes are a million miles better.. I agree with you we are not better off wins, defensively and table position wise but you cant say we havent improve in our overall game play..

 

 

Sky showed a graphic on Monday night that shows we've barely improved in the way we've play.

Incomparable is a massive overstatement, IMO.  I'm not saying we haven't improved.  I'm saying the improvement is minimal.

[Sir Alf]

We are missing a finisher but as I and others bore on about our key problem is now central midfield.  If you want to have a cutting edge you need pace and power in there for fast transitions, lots of movement creating openings and of course being able to cope with teams that press and counter at speed.  Our build up is too slow and we lack the "legs" to do it well and its why we are so brittle or vulnerable to teams who press well and have players breaking thru midfield etc.

I would agree that the intent in our play ( approach via tactics ) is better and you can see we have improved in possession and no longer sit so deep. But its a "double edged sword" as its high risk ( as per aforementioned pace/strength issues) that sees us conceding far too many goals.  The area we strengthened ( back 3 or 4 depending on formation and tactics) is not perfect but not the main reason why we concede so many but many think it is when they use the phrase "poor defence".  You defend as a team and midfield is now more key to that than ever.  You need to be able to press relentlessly and be fast and strong in there.  We are not.  We do not have some of the type of players needed to do that unfortunately yet.  Its why I tend to call Lopetegui's tactics suicidal.   We are a team with one foot still in the Moyes area in terms of the squad.  We need more and better recruitment or a youth or two coming in to solve the core central midfield issue.   I think its 2 maybe 3 for the squad overall players we need.  For me, and easy to say of course, is use Chelsea as the template, they now have the best central midfield in the league.  Caicedo, Fernandez and Lavia the standouts but obviously complemented by Palmer , Veiga and Mudryk.  Watching them against Spurs, no slouches in that area, Spurs just could not compete with them. Speed of passing, strength on the ball, mostly one or two touch cutting the Spuds open and able to cope with the fast counters of Son and co.  They only let in 2 goals because the Spanish full back (with the Sideshow Bob hair )had the wrong boots on and slipped twice gifting them possession and 2 goals early on.    Yes Chelsea have good players up front too but not that much better than us except with Jackson as their CF and the back 3 or 4 was a bit ropey at times but gets protected so well by the midfield "engine".

Get that fixed ( recruiting young athletes with energy and pace not the continual recruitment of good technicians but players lacking the legs ) and we would be transformed even with Lopetegui in charge would be my guess.    

Like I say, statements of the obvious, that we need good players like Caicedo and co costing 50 - 100 million each but we could also do what Brighton do and use data analysis to identify the youngsters out there with those qualities, buy them now cheaper and develop them etc.  but then we are back to Sullivan and his backward thinking and blindness, ignoring suggestions for investment for the future ( ok we got the Brazilian kid ) and more inclined to listen to Silkman and Salthouse for players on their books.

Anyway, long way ( as usual ) of saying its the central midfield, needing 2 very different types of players to what we have ,  that IMO will instantly make a difference.   

[BillyJenningsBoots]

I know you're still desperate to be proved right about him and will look for any kind of positive.

But we're barely any better off, minus £150m in the bank.

Not desperate, just saying it how it is. Ive also said I'd be well happy if Allegri took us over, if we are going to make a change. Unfortunately he doesn't want to come until the Summer.

None of our players have improved under him, have they?

So I have no idea where you're seeing an improvement in the way we play.  We still stink out the place from the defence that still leaks goals, to a midfield that still can't control the game, to a forward line that barely scores any goals.

Trundle... what are you watching... our possession, passing and build up play is incomparable to last season... we look like we want the ball and can pass it around. I know stats are subjective but again possession, shots and passes are a million miles better.. I agree with you we are not better off wins, defensively and table position wise but you cant say we havent improve in our overall game play..

[Massive Attack]

I know you're still desperate to be proved right about him and will look for any kind of positive.

But we're barely any better off, minus £150m in the bank.

Not desperate, just saying it how it is. Ive also said I'd be well happy if Allegri took us over, if we are going to make a change. Unfortunately he doesn't want to come until the Summer.

None of our players have improved under him, have they?

So I have no idea where you're seeing an improvement in the way we play.  We still stink out the place from the defence that still leaks goals, to a midfield that still can't control the game, to a forward line that barely scores any goals.

Soucek definitely has. Most people have commented how much better his passing has been and has already scored 4 being more involved in attacks. Being spoken about as HotY at the rate he's currently playing.

Wan-Bissaka is also in excellent form and he's not played this good in a very long time before coming here.

Mavropanos has started to show signs of improvement in the last match and if he continues on from here, he may be another one that's improved. 

I've also detailed the positives in a post below where we have clearly improved from last season. 

[Lee Trundle]

Defending - agreed. How we now attack as well as keeping hold of possession and popping it about with ease, totally disagree on that front. We were allergic to the Football last season under Moyes compared to now and that's what I long hoped to see change for the better.

Still missing a deadly finisher up top the same as Moyes era. Still feels like a muddle through job with any old sod up front which hasn't changed unfortunately. Duran would have been that man by the looks of it. Gutting.

I know you're still desperate to be proved right about him and will look for any kind of positive.

But we're barely any better off, minus £150m in the bank.

Not desperate, just saying it how it is. Ive also said I'd be well happy if Allegri took us over, if we are going to make a change. Unfortunately he doesn't want to come until the Summer.

None of our players have improved under him, have they?

So I have no idea where you're seeing an improvement in the way we play.  We still stink out the place from the defence that still leaks goals, to a midfield that still can't control the game, to a forward line that barely scores any goals.

[Massive Attack]

I've barely seen much of an improvement compared to last season.

Defending - agreed. How we now attack as well as keeping hold of possession and popping it about with ease, totally disagree on that front. We were allergic to the Football last season under Moyes compared to now and that's what I long hoped to see change for the better.

Still missing a deadly finisher up top the same as Moyes era. Still feels like a muddle through job with any old sod up front which hasn't changed unfortunately. Duran would have been that man by the looks of it. Gutting.

I know you're still desperate to be proved right about him and will look for any kind of positive.

But we're barely any better off, minus £150m in the bank.

Not desperate, just saying it how it is. Ive also said I'd be well happy if Allegri took us over, if we are going to make a change. Unfortunately he doesn't want to come until the Summer. I'm sorry you're too impatient to wait for more meaningful change. It was never going to happen under the circumstances. 

[Lee Trundle]

I've barely seen much of an improvement compared to last season.

Defending - agreed. How we now attack as well as keeping hold of possession and popping it about with ease, totally disagree on that front. We were allergic to the Football last season under Moyes compared to now and that's what I long hoped to see change for the better.

Still missing a deadly finisher up top the same as Moyes era. Still feels like a muddle through job with any old sod up front which hasn't changed unfortunately. Duran would have been that man by the looks of it. Gutting.

I know you're still desperate to be proved right about him and will look for any kind of positive.

But we're barely any better off, minus £150m in the bank.

[Massive Attack]

Not only that, they're also in sparkling form the past 2 months. Absolutely flying. Bournemouth will be extremely difficult in their current form and at their gaff. I'd take a draw right now. 

Having said that, I also think it will be an entertaining game where both Teams are likely to go at it constantly looking to get on the attack. 

I see them winning 3-2 if I'm honest.

Unlike Lopetegui, Iraola has had the luxury of taking over a year in the job to get to this level of consistent quality Football. When he first started off in the new job at Bournemouth  he had a run as bad as Lopetegui's...

[stubbo]

Bournemouth in the xG table stakes are second...i.e. if they'd scored the goals they would be expected to, and conceded the goals they would be expected to (and everyone else did the same) they'd be second in the league.

Tells your their all around play is excellent. No one should be banking on winning this game....we'll likely do well not to get thumped.

[Massive Attack]

I've barely seen much of an improvement compared to last season.

Defending - agreed. How we now attack as well as keeping hold of possession and popping it about with ease, totally disagree on that front. We were allergic to the Football last season under Moyes compared to now and that's what I long hoped to see change for the better.

Still missing a deadly finisher up top the same as Moyes era. Still feels like a muddle through job with any old sod up front which hasn't changed unfortunately. Duran would have been that man by the looks of it. Gutting.

[Lee Trundle]

I've barely seen much of an improvement compared to last season.

[Sir Alf]

Spot on. Like most discussions about our failings it always comes back to Sullivan.

Its why most companies in any line of business fail. The leadership, chairman, CEO and in our case he has the power though majority shareholdings.

We go around in circles year after year discussing why we consistently underachieve and talk about the symptoms. From time to time there is a temporary reprieve where we start to get on track and appear to be progressing but to sustain that takes planning, aligning operational processes and budgets with the overall plan, appointing executives with the know how who are also aligned with the plan. We have some "window dressing" since Kretinsky has been on board with a Tech Director at first being heralded as the person in charge of all football matters. He's not, Sullivan has veto on board decisions and ultimate control of the purse strings.

Sullivan appears to only listen to those who have a vested interest in stroking his ego. At the end of the day, his stature, a small man psychologically in need of feeling bigger and being validated is what means he can never do whats right for the "greater good" of the club long term. His image, ego, pride and need for appreciation is always going to be the priority and driver for holding the club back and make so many wrong decisions year after year.

I do believe he wants success, he's made budget available but any success has to be seen to be down to him and that's the problem.

We will likely lose the next 2 and the season officially written off. Sullivan will not change the way he operates and the next appointment, even if appearing to be more progressive or the right one, will fail. The old adage "fish rots from the head" is as true as even.