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Massive Attack" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 12:59
As for identity, it is becoming more and more clearer the longer we go through the season. We are now a possession based, free-flowing attacking Team that creates countless chances. Sadly we lack a clinical finisher up top to finish them but had we managed to get a fit one regularly playing (Duran!), we would be much higher up the table.
We also now regularly play intricate 1-touch passing patterns of play from back to front which was non-existent before this season. Sure the defence is loose at times but that is the trade-off for a more expansive, entertaining attacking style of play from a Team that genuinely wants to win every game. As opposed to occasionally playing for a negative draw or just to keep the goals conceded down by the opposition.
It's just typical that when we do finally get quality Forwards/Strikers at the Club - Scamacca, Haller, Arnautovic, they are at a time when we had the most defence minded manager in the game and when we get an attacking Coach, he has to deal with injury prone old biddies up front in Antonio, Ings, Fullkrug. If only it was the other way around...
The Football is night and day, if not the results yet but I believe that will eventually come the longer the Squad is familiar with this new exciting style of play, as well as getting the recruitment right. It was never going to be an overnight successful change with a culture built on stopping the opposition at all costs, rather than trying to win every game by trying to score as much as we can.
It's a shame for you that the STATS don't really match up with what you think.
"We are now a possession based, free-flowing attacking Team that creates countless chances."
In reference to the games since Newcastle which I've previously stated.
Massive Attack" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 12:59
As for identity, it is becoming more and more clearer the longer we go through the season. We are now a possession based, free-flowing attacking Team that creates countless chances. Sadly we lack a clinical finisher up top to finish them but had we managed to get a fit one regularly playing (Duran!), we would be much higher up the table.
We also now regularly play intricate 1-touch passing patterns of play from back to front which was non-existent before this season. Sure the defence is loose at times but that is the trade-off for a more expansive, entertaining attacking style of play from a Team that genuinely wants to win every game. As opposed to occasionally playing for a negative draw or just to keep the goals conceded down by the opposition.
It's just typical that when we do finally get quality Forwards/Strikers at the Club - Scamacca, Haller, Arnautovic, they are at a time when we had the most defence minded manager in the game and when we get an attacking Coach, he has to deal with injury prone old biddies up front in Antonio, Ings, Fullkrug. If only it was the other way around...
The Football is night and day, if not the results yet but I believe that will eventually come the longer the Squad is familiar with this new exciting style of play, as well as getting the recruitment right. It was never going to be an overnight successful change with a culture built on stopping the opposition at all costs, rather than trying to win every game by trying to score as much as we can.
It's a shame for you that the STATS don't really match up with what you think.
"We are now a possession based, free-flowing attacking Team that creates countless chances."
In reference to the games since Newcastle which I've previously stated.
Massive Attack" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 12:59
As for identity, it is becoming more and more clearer the longer we go through the season. We are now a possession based, free-flowing attacking Team that creates countless chances. Sadly we lack a clinical finisher up top to finish them but had we managed to get a fit one regularly playing (Duran!), we would be much higher up the table.
We also now regularly play intricate 1-touch passing patterns of play from back to front which was non-existent before this season. Sure the defence is loose at times but that is the trade-off for a more expansive, entertaining attacking style of play from a Team that genuinely wants to win every game. As opposed to occasionally playing for a negative draw or just to keep the goals conceded down by the opposition.
It's just typical that when we do finally get quality Forwards/Strikers at the Club - Scamacca, Haller, Arnautovic, they are at a time when we had the most defence minded manager in the game and when we get an attacking Coach, he has to deal with injury prone old biddies up front in Antonio, Ings, Fullkrug. If only it was the other way around...
The Football is night and day, if not the results yet but I believe that will eventually come the longer the Squad is familiar with this new exciting style of play, as well as getting the recruitment right. It was never going to be an overnight successful change with a culture built on stopping the opposition at all costs, rather than trying to win every game by trying to score as much as we can.
It's a shame for you that the STATS don't really match up with what you think.
aldgate wrote: ↑16 Dec 2024, 23:34
Seemed like an odd time to blood a couple of kids in the back line - completely out of character from the manager
Done purely out of shame and desperation to keep his job, having been roasted in the media for being the worst PL manager for giving youth a chance so far this season. Plus the injuries and falling out with players is leaving him with very little choice.
I suspect the latter (lack of availability) more than the former (the roasting). Ultimately he's about trying to keep his job so will do whatever he thinks gives him the best chance of that.
But who cares the reason...if it drives him to give the kids some playing time and builds trust in their ability then that can only be a good thing.
Let's face it in the same circumstances under Moyes he'd have had players play out of position of flogged the ones on the pitch into the ground over bringing on Scarles and Casey in a tight league game like that. So a step in the right direction.
I also think you can understand him not putting them on the bench a lot of the time....I mean take Casey as an example....you've got Todibo at 40m and very highly rated, you've got Kilman at 40m who is ever present, and you've got Greek International Mavropanos and one of the best aerial players in the league. Then you've got a young kid...If you're trying to win a game, Casey never gets in ahead of the other 3.
Same at LB. Emerson who has won every euro comp going. Current Czech international Coufal. Club stalwart Cresswell with hundreds of Premier League performances behind him. And Wan Bissaka who has arguably been out best LB all year when played there. And then a kid called Scarles who unless he looks like Roberto Carlos in training has to wait until injuries and retirements give him a chance, as it's always been.
I want to see the kids come through, but you can understand why a manager who isn't in a position of strength (2 year contract with extension contingent on coming top 6/7 or winning a domestic cup) doesn't say 'fuck it, throw the untried kids in' when he has a squad of decorated International players.
So what happened last night is how it happens....injuries kick in, the best kids get a chance, and they have to take it. Hopefully he saw enough to build some trust in them.
That’s a lot of excuses for ignoring our youth team so far. Which I thought would be going against his remit. Having been talked up for bringing through youth before he joined.
Last night was a noticeable difference as he brought on two, having not given any minutes to one previously. It felt like he has been reminded to than suddenly found the perfect timing.
Pleased he did so either way and hope he continues to offer more minutes blooding youngsters, as this season is pretty much a write off already. Won’t challenge for Europe and won’t get relegated. With expectations now so low it could become a season highlight finding out one or two can become valuable squad players.
Sadly though, with the January window coming I suspect he will more than likely block that pathway with more senior signings, long or short term.
As for identity, it is becoming more and more clearer the longer we go through the season. We are now a possession based, free-flowing attacking Team that creates countless chances. Sadly we lack a clinical finisher up top to finish them but had we managed to get a fit one regularly playing (Duran!), we would be much higher up the table.
We also now regularly play intricate 1-touch passing patterns of play from back to front which was non-existent before this season. Sure the defence is loose at times but that is the trade-off for a more expansive, entertaining attacking style of play from a Team that genuinely wants to win every game. As opposed to occasionally playing for a negative draw or just to keep the goals conceded down by the opposition.
It's just typical that when we do finally get quality Forwards/Strikers at the Club - Scamacca, Haller, Arnautovic, they are at a time when we had the most defence minded manager in the game and when we get an attacking Coach, he has to deal with injury prone old biddies up front in Antonio, Ings, Fullkrug. If only it was the other way around...
The Football is night and day, if not the results yet but I believe that will eventually come the longer the Squad is familiar with this new exciting style of play, as well as getting the recruitment right. It was never going to be an overnight successful change with a culture built on stopping the opposition at all costs, rather than trying to win every game by trying to score as much as we can.
As for aimlessly punts forward, we carved out many decent chances last night, be it Bowen smacking the crossbar, another effort the Keeper saved well from, same thing against Fullkrugs effort, Soucek effort blocked going for a corner, Kilman header getting blocked for a corner, scoring our Penalty and so on throughout the game. No luck about our result or performance last night.
That’s a pretty black and white view. I’m sure there’s plenty of fans like me who are not screaming for him to be sacked, who didn’t hate his appointment but are concerned about his start. We’ve had some awful m displays and sit 14th. Yes there are some signs of improvement in some areas but we need a balanced view and see concerns in context of performances in general - recently forest, arsenal, Leicester. We were not poor last night but we were lucky to still be in it in the second half as they were much the better side for most of it and didn’t take their opportunities. I’m not expecting us to dominate but I’m expecting less aimless punts forward at this stage in his tenure. I still don’t really understand what our identity is, which is a valid concern in my opinion. Of course I want him to turn it around I’m just not feeling confident based on what I’m seeing. I’m not sure of the stats but I can’t imagine we’ve got any more points than at this stage last year. We spent a lot on experienced players, not on players for the future. I hope you’re right, and that you’re view of us moving forward is fair. Let’s be fair to those with concerns too.
Mr Anon" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 10:35
don't understand people thinking it was poor, it was a good contest against a side that would have been two points off Arsenal had they won. some of you seem to think we should dominate, you clearly haven't been paying attention to how good Bournemouth have been recently.
In terms of performance actually thought we moved the ball about well for the most part, yeah still room for improvement but was better than anything I saw last season
Some have clear agendas, that's why. Neither wanted Lopetegui to begin with so never accepted him and other's still hung up over Moyes getting the boot. But we knew all this already, just occasionally needs reminding as to why some are still trying to totally skew what actually happened.
A large % of the support want us to fail and want Lop out, they don't want us to improve or for him to turn it around, bit fucking odd if you ask me.
Very odd but also very obvious, too.
You only had to read comments online by some before the game who were quick to point out that should he lose last night, he'll get the sack. Well that was their hope anyway, just as it was against Wolves. 4 points later and the useless cսnt's still here with more signs of improvement and entertaining Football...
Even the introduction of 2 Academy player's were played in spite of the manager!
Bournemouth beat Champions Man City, Arsenal, Spurs, as well as draw with Villa and Newcastle and only lost 0-1 to Chelsea late in the game this season. That's how well they've been playing all season long, straight off the back of 3 consecutive wins prior to our game last night.
Mr Anon" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 10:35
don't understand people thinking it was poor, it was a good contest against a side that would have been two points off Arsenal had they won. some of you seem to think we should dominate, you clearly haven't been paying attention to how good Bournemouth have been recently.
In terms of performance actually thought we moved the ball about well for the most part, yeah still room for improvement but was better than anything I saw last season
Some have clear agendas, that's why. Neither wanted Lopetegui to begin with so never accepted him and other's still hung up over Moyes getting the boot. But we knew all this already, just occasionally needs reminding as to why some are still trying to totally skew what actually happened.
A large % of the support want us to fail and want Lop out, they don't want us to improve or for him to turn it around, bit fucking odd if you ask me.
I expected us to get smashed so would've taken a point before the game. The highlights were not flattering on us (Fab often bailing out a defence all at sea) so unless someone in the Sky editing department has an agenda against us, it would imply whatever improvement's Lop is supposedly making aren't really in either the defending or attacking third.
Still, good to read that instead of setting out to nick a draw from the start, we're at least trying to give it a go even if it's all still quite shambolic. And some academy products getting minutes is always welcome.
Mr Anon" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 10:35
don't understand people thinking it was poor, it was a good contest against a side that would have been two points off Arsenal had they won. some of you seem to think we should dominate, you clearly haven't been paying attention to how good Bournemouth have been recently.
In terms of performance actually thought we moved the ball about well for the most part, yeah still room for improvement but was better than anything I saw last season
Some have clear agendas, that's why. Neither wanted Lopetegui to begin with so never accepted him and other's still hung up over Moyes getting the boot. But we knew all this already, just occasionally needs reminding as to why some are still trying to totally skew what actually happened.
Funny how many criticising our performance only saw the 2nd half...
Better to watch the entire game to make a better informed judgement because the 2nd half alone doesn't tell the full story.
48% possession as the Away Team with only 16 passes less than them at their home ground with 16 efforts at goal against 1 of the most in form Teams in the League is going toe to toe with them. With the important added context without a recognised Left Back and Striker.
Well deserved hard fought draw that neither Arsenal, Man City or Spurs could manage at their Stadium and were a whisker away from actually winning it because we were still pushing for a winner till the very end.
A good point last night, shame to have conceded at the very end, and so we bobble along in lower mid table limbo where win, lose or draw we still retain the same place in the table.
We took a point off a team seeking its fourth league win in a row so not a bad result for us. It’s Brighton up next and I expect we will perform similarly to the Bournemouth game. The results as they come seem to point toward us keeping Jalopy until the end of the season. Mid table mediocrity, a forty something points a season team, an Allardyce level of performance.
don't understand people thinking it was poor, it was a good contest against a side that would have been two points off Arsenal had they won. some of you seem to think we should dominate, you clearly haven't been paying attention to how good Bournemouth have been recently.
In terms of performance actually thought we moved the ball about well for the most part, yeah still room for improvement but was better than anything I saw last season
Last edited by Mr Anon on 17 Dec 2024, 10:39, edited 1 time in total.
Watched 2nd half only and what I saw was awful. We were outplayed and outthought by a much better team with a much better coach. We played without any shape, once again gave up possession cheaply or worse still resorted to hoofing it away to ease the pressure. We were second to every ball and there was absolutely nothing to suggest we will improve under this clueless manager.
I really do admire your optimism but I can’t see it that way. We were very lucky to get a point yesterday, we didn’t go to toe to toe with them. That was their record number of shots in the premier league. They were easily the better side apart from 20 mins in first half.
In game management was poor imho. When we were on top in first half he decided to move paqueta up top and we lost momentum. Same as he did against Leicester when he moved Bowen centrally when he was getting a lot of joy out wide. Moving to 3 at bsck invited more pressure last night too. There’s glimpses of good play but generally speaking we are poor in possession. Gave the ball away a lot, loads of aimless punts, slow and predictable in midfield. Apart from awb none of the summer signings look great and reported player / manager bust ups are worrying.
I want it to work out but our league position is pretty poor and I just don’t see us going on a run to make it into top half now.
I would give him the rest of season to prove me wrong but at the moment I’m finding hard to share your optimism.
Massive Attack" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 09:13
Essentially, if we get rid of Mavropanos out the 1st Team (Off the bench fine) and get in a more reliable Centre Half when someone like Todibo isn't available (like he proved up at Newcastle) and also a specialist Left Back instead of a makeshift one in the ever impressive Wan-Bissaka, then we have the makings of a very good winning and entertaining side.
That side last night was missing 2 important players in Emerson and Todibo that make a big difference to us.
And as excellent as Fabianski was last night, he's on the clock with limited time and need a younger equally good Keeper.
Striker speaks for itself.
So considering we weren't even playing with a proper younger Striker (think Duran quality long term who Lopetegui wanted) for most of the game or Left Back with Wan-Bissaka having to play out of position again and no Todibo that performance was an excellent one considering.
Big signs of improvement as a Team and one that is now regularly showing what it can do with endless attacks over the past 5 matches scoring regualrly with ease even without a fit and in form Striker.
To go toe-to-toe with a Bournemouth side in red hot form at their place is great to see, especially when no one gave us much of a chance before the game and het we could have won it in the end. A Bournemouth Team much further down the line in their development that's took them a season to get to this point of quality.
This is only the beginning for us under half a season of Lopetegui's 1st season and we've already reached a high level of quality to give them such a game...
I largely agree with you, but think "scoring regularly with ease" is a stretch.
That's 8 goals scored since Newcastle, 1 questionable goal ruled out at Leciester via VAR, 2 Kudus goals narrowly ruled out due to VAR. Scoring without a recognised Striker hasn't been an issue at all which is a big indicator we can score regularly without much of an issue, scoring in every game now. Imagine if only we had a proper recognised fit Striker up top...
I think last night was 'okay' but not great. Maybe we are making very small improvements but i'm yet to really see a full 90min of performance that I can cling on to.
I really want him to succeed but at the moment i just don't see it happening.
Massive Attack" wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 09:13
Essentially, if we get rid of Mavropanos out the 1st Team (Off the bench fine) and get in a more reliable Centre Half when someone like Todibo isn't available (like he proved up at Newcastle) and also a specialist Left Back instead of a makeshift one in the ever impressive Wan-Bissaka, then we have the makings of a very good winning and entertaining side.
That side last night was missing 2 important players in Emerson and Todibo that make a big difference to us.
And as excellent as Fabianski was last night, he's on the clock with limited time and need a younger equally good Keeper.
Striker speaks for itself.
So considering we weren't even playing with a proper younger Striker (think Duran quality long term who Lopetegui wanted) for most of the game or Left Back with Wan-Bissaka having to play out of position again and no Todibo that performance was an excellent one considering.
Big signs of improvement as a Team and one that is now regularly showing what it can do with endless attacks over the past 5 matches scoring regualrly with ease even without a fit and in form Striker.
To go toe-to-toe with a Bournemouth side in red hot form at their place is great to see, especially when no one gave us much of a chance before the game and het we could have won it in the end. A Bournemouth Team much further down the line in their development that's took them a season to get to this point of quality.
This is only the beginning for us under half a season of Lopetegui's 1st season and we've already reached a high level of quality to give them such a game...
I largely agree with you, but think "scoring regularly with ease" is a stretch.
Struggled to score last night. Struggled to score against Leicester. Struggled to score against Wolves until deep in the game.
We're improving no question. Way more watchable than under Moyes. The defending is still kamikaze and all that has changed there is the quality of opposition marksmen.
In possession we're looking better and finding balance. But it will be the Liverpool game at home where we find out if we've really improved....if they take us apart then it just comes down to the opposition having declined last few games. If we look like we can give them a game (even in defeat) then we'll have a solid benchmark.
aldgate wrote: ↑16 Dec 2024, 23:34
Seemed like an odd time to blood a couple of kids in the back line - completely out of character from the manager
Done purely out of shame and desperation to keep his job, having been roasted in the media for being the worst PL manager for giving youth a chance so far this season. Plus the injuries and falling out with players is leaving him with very little choice.
I suspect the latter (lack of availability) more than the former (the roasting). Ultimately he's about trying to keep his job so will do whatever he thinks gives him the best chance of that.
But who cares the reason...if it drives him to give the kids some playing time and builds trust in their ability then that can only be a good thing.
Let's face it in the same circumstances under Moyes he'd have had players play out of position of flogged the ones on the pitch into the ground over bringing on Scarles and Casey in a tight league game like that. So a step in the right direction.
I also think you can understand him not putting them on the bench a lot of the time....I mean take Casey as an example....you've got Todibo at 40m and very highly rated, you've got Kilman at 40m who is ever present, and you've got Greek International Mavropanos and one of the best aerial players in the league. Then you've got a young kid...If you're trying to win a game, Casey never gets in ahead of the other 3.
Same at LB. Emerson who has won every euro comp going. Current Czech international Coufal. Club stalwart Cresswell with hundreds of Premier League performances behind him. And Wan Bissaka who has arguably been out best LB all year when played there. And then a kid called Scarles who unless he looks like Roberto Carlos in training has to wait until injuries and retirements give him a chance, as it's always been.
I want to see the kids come through, but you can understand why a manager who isn't in a position of strength (2 year contract with extension contingent on coming top 6/7 or winning a domestic cup) doesn't say 'fuck it, throw the untried kids in' when he has a squad of decorated International players.
So what happened last night is how it happens....injuries kick in, the best kids get a chance, and they have to take it. Hopefully he saw enough to build some trust in them.
Essentially, if we get rid of Mavropanos out the 1st Team (Off the bench fine) and get in a more reliable Centre Half when someone like Todibo isn't available (like he proved up at Newcastle) and also a specialist Left Back instead of a makeshift one in the ever impressive Wan-Bissaka, then we have the makings of a very good winning and entertaining side.
That side last night was missing 2 important players in Emerson and Todibo that make a big difference to us.
And as excellent as Fabianski was last night, he's on the clock with limited time and need a younger equally good Keeper.
Striker speaks for itself.
So considering we weren't even playing with a proper younger Striker (think Duran quality long term who Lopetegui wanted) for most of the game or Left Back with Wan-Bissaka having to play out of position again and no Todibo that performance was an excellent one considering.
Big signs of improvement as a Team and one that is now regularly showing what it can do with endless attacks over the past 5 matches scoring regualrly with ease even without a fit and in form Striker.
To go toe-to-toe with a Bournemouth side in red hot form at their place is great to see, especially when no one gave us much of a chance before the game and het we could have won it in the end. A Bournemouth Team much further down the line in their development that's took them a season to get to this point of quality.
This is only the beginning for us under half a season of Lopetegui's 1st season and we've already reached a high level of quality to give them such a game...
Rossal wrote: ↑17 Dec 2024, 09:00
First half we played well, the Newcastle game and last night have been much better than most the away performances this season. Fab made some great saves, but we also threatened and controlled the game first half.
Thought we gave away our dominance when he took Soler off, he was controlling the game and easily our best midfielder. Taking him off cos he was on a yellow (for a cynical foul he wouldnt make again having already been booked) was the complete wrong call for me. Then going 5 at the back, again strange.....just invited pressure.
Think the main thing for us to work on is passing the ball forward, we kept it well last night and knocked it about nice only to go backwards to Fab who hoofs it to no one as his kicking is shit and we lose the ball anyway. When we are in their half take a risk, play it forward.....take someone on.....better to lose it that way than Fab lumping it.
But overall a good point on the road, and nice to see the young lads get a shot. Anyone rate Fullkrug when he came on? ran about a bit but every time i've watched him he just reminds me of Haller.......doesnt suit the premier league or our style of play. Can't see him getting anywhere near 10 goals to be honest
What I would say about Fullkrug is he's getting one or two solid chances per game on target. Scored the last time in his 15 mins, the header last night a yard either way goes in. He knows how to attack the ball in the box so if we create chances he'll get his ten goals.
He also got his foot in a couple of times, held off the defenders....a couple of times played good balls through. Think he'll be ok....he's just not the all-action Antonio or Arnautovic type, or tricky type like Di Canio that we all love to see. He's a penalty box target man.
The reference to Haller is a good one...but I think Haller would have worked out too...but it's about expectations. Haller, Fullkrug....they're like a poor man's Harry Kane...drop in, link the play, get in the box and try and score. If the rest of the team (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta, Soler, Emerson, AWB) can create penalty box chances, then Fullkrug will do just fine, and might even help us retain possession high up the field (not Antonio's strong suit). But he won't be charging around like a headless chicken, running channels, and taking defenders on. Even when pressing, he was looking to close down a passing lane and close....but that only works if the others are pressing with him.
Think he did alright and will be alright.
I thought the header was a terrible miss, he has to score that with his pedigree. Fair points on his style of play, and i agree if we set up to work the ball in the box he can finish but issue is that hasnt been our style of play for years.
Haller is one of the worst players i've seen in a WHU shirt, so hopefully turns out nothing like him!
