Lopetegui (sacked 8.1.2025)

[maverick180]

I was thoroughly looking forward to the start of this season

Was also prepared that things might take some time and wasn't expecting miracles over night What I didn't expect was a manager who after spending 6 weeks with the total dross he'd been left by Moyes would deem them fit to start in a premier league game And low and behold all of them played absolute shit

We're now 1 game in and none of our new players are any closer to bedding in or learning anything from their new team mates cos they barely spent a second on the pitch, half of them not at all I think it's gonna take somewhere between 6-10 games before we see the team anyone with an ounce of sense would play cos this bloke can't identify shit when he see's it I thought we was handed a miracle at half time when we went in level and low and behold he changed nothing I'm sure people are gonna make excuses for him and say it's too early to judge

But from what I've just seen today, this cսnt is David Moyes in a mission impossible mask

[southbankbornnbred]

AWB is a top-class right back. We really should play him there. And Emerson is a decent left-back (no issue when he plays there). But the CBs, and the slow horses in front of them, are why we're shipping bags of goals.

 

AWB, Kilman, Emerson and Todibo are all decent PL players. We need some cover at CB that isn’t mavrapanos.
Kilman is okay, he’s not been perfect but I think he gets a hard time on here. You can have slow centre halves but you have to allow for that in the set up. Something we definitely don’t do.

 

Kilman proved he can work fine in a Lopetegui side defensively at Wolves. He isn't the issue, it's those around him that drag him down to their level..

*looks in Mavropanos/Rodriguez/Alvarez direction*

All slow, an accident waiting to happen, gift fouls too easily and poor positionally. Kilmans forever fire fighting and baby sitting them when Todibo's out the side struggling to last more than 1 half a game.

Hear what you're saying, MA, but don't forget: Wolves were fortunate to finish 13th that season. Sure, they improved under Lopetegui. No doubt. But they did not tear-up the league and they shipped goals. Only four sides had worse goals records.

The fact is Kilman has not played in a team that has finished near the top half of the premier league. Yet we spent £40m on him. His awareness and combativeness are not a problem. It's his lack of pace - it leaves him exposed too often in a fast league.

[Massive Attack]

AWB is a top-class right back. We really should play him there. And Emerson is a decent left-back (no issue when he plays there). But the CBs, and the slow horses in front of them, are why we're shipping bags of goals.

 

AWB, Kilman, Emerson and Todibo are all decent PL players. We need some cover at CB that isn’t mavrapanos.
Kilman is okay, he’s not been perfect but I think he gets a hard time on here. You can have slow centre halves but you have to allow for that in the set up. Something we definitely don’t do.

 

 

Kilman proved he can work fine in a Lopetegui side defensively at Wolves, so much so he trusted him as Captain. He isn't the issue, it's those around him that drag him down to their level..

*Looks in Mavropanos/Rodriguez/Alvarez direction*

All slow, an accident waiting to happen, gift fouls too easily and poor positionally. Kilmans forever fire fighting and baby sitting them when Todibo's out the side struggling to last more than 1 half a game.

[southbankbornnbred]

Right - off out. Some genuinely interesting stuff from folk on this thread.

Have a great New Year, all. And let's hope that, somehow, 2025 is our year!

COYI!

[southbankbornnbred]

My fear with Kilman is that we've paid top-tier money for a player who is always going to be a mid-tier guy because of his lack of pace.

[southbankbornnbred]

AWB is a top-class right back. We really should play him there. And Emerson is a decent left-back (no issue when he plays there). But the CBs, and the slow horses in front of them, are why we're shipping bags of goals.

 

AWB, Kilman, Emerson and Todibo are all decent PL players. We need some cover at CB that isn’t mavrapanos.
Kilman is okay, he’s not been perfect but I think he gets a hard time on here. You can have slow centre halves but you have to allow for that in the set up. Something we definitely don’t do.

You can have slow centre halves but, increasingly, they are found in the bottom half of the Premier League these days. Players are rapid in the Premier League - it's a faster league than most and the transitions from defence to attack are often extremely quick. The days of Tony Adams at centre half are disappearing - unless you are excellent at reading the game.

It's why I have my doubts we'll ever get value out of £40m Kilman. His positional sense is sound and he's a warrior. But he can get shredded over ten yards, let alone 25.

I'm sure there are some, but I can't think of too many (relatively) slow CBs at clubs in the top eight or so teams.

[goose]

AWB is a top-class right back. We really should play him there. And Emerson is a decent left-back (no issue when he plays there). But the CBs, and the slow horses in front of them, are why we're shipping bags of goals.

 

 

AWB, Kilman, Emerson and Todibo are all decent PL players. We need some cover at CB that isn’t mavrapanos.
Kilman is okay, he’s not been perfect but I think he gets a hard time on here. You can have slow centre halves but you have to allow for that in the set up. Something we definitely don’t do.

[southbankbornnbred]

Genuinely, I thought Lopetegui had stopped doing that STUPID thing with the full-backs covering miles inside. And for a few games we looked a lot better. I began to think the Spaniard had learned a good lesson, and thought it spoke well of him.

But he's crept back into doing it in the past couple of games. Whatever that defensive look was against Liverpool, it was awful. What on Earth did he think he was doing with Emerson?!

It's a manger under pressure over-thinking. Just play your best players in their best traditional positions. We're not Man City and he's not Pep. His English is also not good enough to communicate complex tactics to players who aren't used to it. Keep it simple. Let them play.

[southbankbornnbred]

- New Keeper

- New Centre Half so we dont have to rely on the Greek tragedy anymore

- Left Back - Emersons form has concerned me and question whether we now need an upgrade on him

- New Defensive Midfielder like a Neves


Wan-Bissaka, Todibo, Kilman I'm happy with. That's if Todibo stays..

That's 4 big quality signings we really need to improve our Defence further. 



 

 

 

Genuinely, I think Lopetegui is responsible for Emerson's poor form. He's often fecked around with our full-backs and asked them to play so far inside to cover the CBs. That has affected Emerson a lot, in my view. Let him, and AWB at right back, play vertically and he'll be OK. He's a decent player - but Lopetegui is trying to over-complicate things with our full-backs. He's trying to be too clever and the players aren't reacting well to it.

[Massive Attack]

I don't know, I'm in 2 minds with Emerson. He can be good, especially going forward but can be found wanting defensively a bit too much for my liking. I can think of better more consistent younger Left Backs like Kerkez at Bournemouth. Get a profile player like him in then I'd sell Emerson. If not, it's a "he'll do I suppose" job in meantime.

[southbankbornnbred]

AWB is a top-class right back. We really should play him there. And Emerson is a decent left-back (no issue when he plays there). But the CBs, and the slow horses in front of them, are why we're shipping bags of goals.

[Massive Attack]

- New Keeper

- New Centre Half so we dont have to rely on the Greek tragedy anymore

- Left Back - Emersons form has concerned me and question whether we now need an upgrade on him

- New Defensive Midfielder like a Neves


Wan-Bissaka, Todibo, Kilman I'm happy with. That's if Todibo stays..

That's 4 big quality signings we really need to improve our Defence further. 

 

[southbankbornnbred]

Man for man I think our first choice defence + keeper are as good as any outside the top 6.
You could probably say the same about the rest of the team as well.

The problem is the spaces in between the lines and down the sides of the centre backs. The distance between players is too big and we don’t have the legs to recover once those lines are broken.

No chance. Keepers, maybe. But not the defence. Our CBs are a problem. Hope I'm wrong, but I don't see Kilman as good enough to be a top-half player, despite his good awareness and commitment. He is painfully slow and turns like an oil tanker - and that will always haunt him in the Premier League. Mav is a disaster waiting to happen - there's always a rickett in him even when he's having a decent game - and he just doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes.

Todibo is the one who might buck the trend. He looks like he could be a fine player under the right manager. Perhaps over time he might also help to improve Kilman (providing the pace alongside him).

But our back four is definitely NOT as good as any outside the top six. We've overspent on some (currently) bang average, or worse, CBs. And we need depth at left-back.

[goose]

Man for man I think our first choice defence + keeper are as good as any outside the top 6.
You could probably say the same about the rest of the team as well.

The problem is the spaces in between the lines and down the sides of the centre backs. The distance between players is too big and we don’t have the legs to recover once those lines are broken.

[muskie]

That win at Newcastle was more down to them being in poor form than anything floppy did.

If we played them now they'd win by 5 or 6.
.

[mallard]

What was the system he played up at Newcastle and how come we haven’t been able to replicate it since?

[Jasnik]

I think the problem with our defence is our Midfield is too bloody slow. 
Also that Mavropanos thinks he can pass through a player rather than around. But if it does get to Paqueta the next pass is a hospital ball. 

[Massive Attack]

I also have no idea what Lop wants to do with the CDM. Sometimes he's out wide covering the full backs that have pushed up, sometimes he's stood near the striker trying to lead the press or running onto a flick on, sometimes he's dropping deep to play as the third centre back.

The CDM probably has no idea where they're meant to be standing and they end up running so much more because of it. Alvarez looked much better last year when he had a much more simplified role.

At Wolves he relied on Neves to perform that role and Fernando at Sevilla. Both a high calibre of player that would know what they're doing and understand what Lopetegui wants from them. We just don't have that level of quality at the Club. He needs a quality 1 in January to rectify it. Shame Rice went just before he arrived.

[Sir Alf]

Good points about tactics and systems. I think Lopetegui is trying to do this “3 box 3” system Pep and other teams play. The idea is you can drop into 4-3-3 or 5 at the back when out of possession but allows. Wing backs to create an overload when attacking.

But the whole team has to commit to it and it demands  wing backs who run for fun and can get back asap etc.  We are just so poor in transitions. We cannot take advantage of them enough but more concerning is how many times we concede after losing possesion  in the oppositions half and being unable as a team to recover. Teams run thru and we have 3 versus 2 or 4 versus 3.

That is the system not matching the profile ( type ) of players we have especially in central midfield.  No one in that area has been any good defensively. Alvarez, Soucek, Soler, Paqueta, Rodruiguez, Irvine. If collectively you are slower and not conpeting well enough physically you are in trouble in the Premiership.

I remain convinced that upgrading this area if the squad is where the most rewards would come ( yeah a striker would be useful now Bowen is crocked). Those players seem best suited to the low block, keep in shape and narrow, but look to counter system that Moyes employed. But teams worked that out too after 18 months.

We need some athletes in the engine room who can run for fun but also strong physically. 



 

[Snodders' Beard]

I also have no idea what Lop wants to do with the CDM. Sometimes he's out wide covering the full backs that have pushed up, sometimes he's stood near the striker trying to lead the press or running onto a flick on, sometimes he's dropping deep to play as the third centre back.

The CDM probably has no idea where they're meant to be standing and they end up running so much more because of it. Alvarez looked much better last year when he had a much more simplified role.

[Massive Attack]

Out of curiosity, since so many thinks our defen6is so shit.

Who should we have bought?
Or who would fix our problems if we could choose anyone?

I recall he wanted that Brazilian defender Bruno in the summer but it fell through early on due to wage demands I think. Maybe go back in for him?

[southbankbornnbred]

Out of curiosity, since so many thinks our defen6is so shit.

Who should we have bought?
Or who would fix our problems if we could choose anyone?

 

 

It's a fair Q, but the answer isn't 'just' about defensive players. It's also about the system we play, how we play it and which defensive midfielders sit in front of that back four.

There are so many variables. high line, low block, all that shit. One or two primarily defensive players in front of the back four etc.

One thing we surely have to do with Lopetegui is get him to ditch that STUPID thing he does with the full-backs, where he still picks games where he tries to tuck the in close to his centre halves - to create a central low block when we're defending our own half. It's fucking insane and just invites possession against you, because your wide attacking opponents always have space and are a passing option.

Lopetegui sort of ditched the mad idea for a few games, but it has crept back in to some of his tactics recently.

He's massively over-thinking how he wants to use his full-backs. Just let them play vertically. We have two good full-backs in AWB and Emerson (even Coufal is still solid). But stop fannying around with them and let them play a system and a style they're used to: they'll be better for it and our defending will improve. That last game, with AWB on the left and Emerson in front of him, was fucking nuts. Again.

The centre halves are a problem. Kilman is a lower half of the Premier League player - at best. And we spunked £40m on him. He reads the game well and has decent positional sense. But he is painfully slow for the modern game, and it leaves him very exposed. Even more so when he's alongside Mav - who I would say is a relegation standard CB because he just makes too many mistakes. Todibo looks very good at times, but he's had injuries and, if the rumours are to be believed, fell out with the manager.

[Sir Alf]

We assume Wan Bissaka was via Sullivan as Salthouse is his agent?  But the point we all agree on is that the successful clubs with limited resources do not operate a commitee based selection process. They have a long term strategy on buying young players who, via data and other means, have been identified as a good fit to the way all the clubs teams will play ( football philosophy ). They buy a few players for now but most for the future and realise they have to sell some at a good profit to bridge the gap to the rich 6 or 7.  They also put a high value on developing the acquired players and those in their academies and look to introduce them asap ( pathway). Brighton and Bournemouth are the “poster boys” for this but other clubs try to do the same in all divisions. The key difference is that they have leaders like Tony Bloom who recruits execs and coaches who “buy in” to the strategy, philosophy.  He empowers his staff and a proper DOF to handle all football matters and to execute the plan. The DOF and team undertake the identification, via a patented analysis method, and Bloom is known as a ”listener”  and tries to help the DOF, exec and other staff be successful.  

We, on the other hand, have a tin pot dictator who runs a circus and always knows best and has to pick the manager and even some players. We even have a board that gets involved in a “management by committee” approach on manager and player recruitment. Sullivan allows this to deflect blame from himself although with Lopetegui it became known he pushed thru his pick and ignored advice from Noble, Steidten. 

Sullivan still recruiting via agents himself is simply not going to work. Nothing is joined up. A scattergun with no plan.

Sullivan’s approach. “READY, FIRE, AIM” 

Its now down to outliving him to see any chance if real, sustained progress. Look after yer health lads and not too many beers, red meat etc.  

[Keep dreaming]

Out of curiosity, since so many thinks our defen6is so shit.

Who should we have bought?
Or who would fix our problems if we could choose anyone?

[Massive Attack]

Wan-Bissaka  -- who ever got him that is a good buy./

Sullivan/Salthouse client - Broken clock and all that. 

[Jasnik]

Wan-Bissaka  -- who ever got him that is a good buy./