Lopetegui (sacked 8.1.2025)

[maverick180]

I was thoroughly looking forward to the start of this season

Was also prepared that things might take some time and wasn't expecting miracles over night What I didn't expect was a manager who after spending 6 weeks with the total dross he'd been left by Moyes would deem them fit to start in a premier league game And low and behold all of them played absolute shit

We're now 1 game in and none of our new players are any closer to bedding in or learning anything from their new team mates cos they barely spent a second on the pitch, half of them not at all I think it's gonna take somewhere between 6-10 games before we see the team anyone with an ounce of sense would play cos this bloke can't identify shit when he see's it I thought we was handed a miracle at half time when we went in level and low and behold he changed nothing I'm sure people are gonna make excuses for him and say it's too early to judge

But from what I've just seen today, this cսnt is David Moyes in a mission impossible mask

[goose]

Man United are doing a massive sale in their souvenir shop to aid PSR.

Spurs have a massive football megastore that sells everything and makes them a ton!

All we have is a couple of shops and a very limited choice!

This is where we are missing out financially.


 

 

 

1) Doing a massive sale isn't going to move the needle for PSR. Selling stuff at a discount isn't going to make much profit. They're more likely doing it to shift stock that will be terminal come March.
2) Most people shop online. The retail stores away from stadiums make fuck all. Spurs have a shop in Harlow thats always empty.
3) Comparing us to those two clubs is laughable. Spurs revenue is miles ahead of ours........... manchester united is lightyears ahead.

[Ladysmith]

And yet West Ham (us) still manage to win Trophies these days in both the youths and seniors before Spurs and their new Megastores and Stadiums help them (you) to achieve.

Yes we do but that’s not my point!

[Massive Attack]

And yet West Ham (us) still manage to win Trophies these days in both the youths and seniors before Spurs and their new Megastores and Stadiums help them (you) to achieve.

[Ladysmith]

Man United are doing a massive sale in their souvenir shop to aid PSR.

Spurs have a massive football megastore that sells everything and makes them a ton!

All we have is a couple of shops and a very limited choice!

This is where we are missing out financially.
 

[Jasnik]

Ta . 

[goose]

To breach PSR we'd need to make a loss of £(40)m in year 3. --> doesn't that mean we break even so still got another 105 mil to go. 

Or were we at that point previous? 

sorry wasnt paying attention to what i was typing. i'll edit it.

try £(145)m

[Jasnik]

To breach PSR we'd need to make a loss of £(40)m in year 3. --> doesn't that mean we break even so still got another 105 mil to go. 

Or were we at that point previous? 

[goose]

Not sure if true but some journo at the Guardian ( I think ) claims the reason Sullivan and board did not sack Lopetegui or at least are very reluctant to is wait… because the cost of paying him and his staff off in addition to getting a new bloke and coaching staff on will be over 5 million and possibly more. This apparently would push us over our PSR limit.  Classic Sullivan. An accountant’s mind where he knows the cost of everything but value of nothing.  Bets on the certainty of saving 5-10 million but passes up the possibility of a new manager/coach getting us 7 places up the table ( whats that 15 million in prize money ?) and entry into Europe.

More like Sullivan just cannot admit or be seen to be culpable ( only in his mind ) of yet another wrong choice of manager.  To his credit, Sullivan knows how to make money via property ( porn got him his initial wealth but property deals and things like buying West Ham and LS stadium con job made it to over a billion )  but when it comes to his football related judgement and choices of managers, players, training facilities he is without doubt a serial failure.  Some will say but what about AWB. Yes AWB and Lanzini have arguably been his 2 successes in 14 years but 53 strikers and probably as many outfield players have been largely duds. Coaches/ managers? Hmmm Moyes but more by luck than judgement.

Sullivan = Football’s serial failure.  Shame he runs our fvcking club


 

PSR allows a club to lose a maximum of £105m over a 3 year period.
Anything we do now would sit in next years accounts.
Over the past two sets of accounts we have made a loss of £(17)m and a profit of £57m. 
To breach PSR we'd need to make a loss of £(40)m in year 3.

[Russ of the BML]

Not sure if true but some journo at the Guardian ( I think ) claims the reason Sullivan and board did not sack Lopetegui or at least are very reluctant to is wait… because the cost of paying him and his staff off in addition to getting a new bloke and coaching staff on will be over 5 million and possibly more. This apparently would push us over our PSR limit.  Classic Sullivan. An accountant’s mind where he knows the cost of everything but value of nothing.  Bets on the certainty of saving 5-10 million but passes up the possibility of a new manager/coach getting us 7 places up the table ( whats that 15 million in prize money ?) and entry into Europe.

More like Sullivan just cannot admit or be seen to be culpable ( only in his mind ) of yet another wrong choice of manager.  To his credit, Sullivan knows how to make money via property ( porn got him his initial wealth but property deals and things like buying West Ham and LS stadium con job made it to over a billion )  but when it comes to his football related judgement and choices of managers, players, training facilities he is without doubt a serial failure.  Some will say but what about AWB. Yes AWB and Lanzini have arguably been his 2 successes in 14 years but 53 strikers and probably as many outfield players have been largely duds. Coaches/ managers? Hmmm Moyes but more by luck than judgement.

Sullivan = Football’s serial failure.  Shame he runs our fvcking club



 

Indeed. So you take your £20m you paid for an unknown 18 year old Brazilian in Guillherme. You use £8m of that to pay Lisbon for Amorim and you keep £12m safe for the next window if you need it. But no, Sullivan turned his nose up at £8m for one of Europe's brightest young managers, but happy to pay double that and more for an unknown kid who hasn't even impacted the first team. As you say, he knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. 

And people may say Amorim is not exactly pulling up trees at Man Utd. But that's a bigger mess than West Ham. And despite that, had we got Amorim and not Guillherme, I am absolutely 100% convinced we would be in a better position now than what we are. Amorim's value to West Ham in the summer would've been huge I am sure it would've triggered our us push on from the staleness left by Moyes. 

[Russ of the BML]

 

It's a fair Q, but the answer isn't 'just' about defensive players. It's also about the system we play, how we play it and which defensive midfielders sit in front of that back four.

There are so many variables. high line, low block, all that shit. One or two primarily defensive players in front of the back four etc.

One thing we surely have to do with Lopetegui is get him to ditch that STUPID thing he does with the full-backs, where he still picks games where he tries to tuck the in close to his centre halves - to create a central low block when we're defending our own half. It's fucking insane and just invites possession against you, because your wide attacking opponents always have space and are a passing option.

Lopetegui sort of ditched the mad idea for a few games, but it has crept back in to some of his tactics recently.

He's massively over-thinking how he wants to use his full-backs. Just let them play vertically. We have two good full-backs in AWB and Emerson (even Coufal is still solid). But stop fannying around with them and let them play a system and a style they're used to: they'll be better for it and our defending will improve. That last game, with AWB on the left and Emerson in front of him, was fucking nuts. Again.

The centre halves are a problem. Kilman is a lower half of the Premier League player - at best. And we spunked £40m on him. He reads the game well and has decent positional sense. But he is painfully slow for the modern game, and it leaves him very exposed. Even more so when he's alongside Mav - who I would say is a relegation standard CB because he just makes too many mistakes. Todibo looks very good at times, but he's had injuries and, if the rumours are to be believed, fell out with the manager.

Good post. The assessment of the FB's and CB's is exactly what the problem is. 

But add to that also that, for some reason, Lope has complicated the DM position by doing this 'up and down' role that see's the DM move into midfield when we have the ball and then into sweeper role when we are defending. Alvarez was made to look a right muppet by this system twice this season. The CB's don't like it either and so when the DM plays as a sweeper they naturally push wider but then, as you say, our FB's are tucking in, so it leaves you with this scenario:

-----------------------------------DM

----------FB-----CB------------------------------CB------FB

-------------------------CM---------------CM

I mean, Jesus, you don't need to be a bran surgeon to see how easy it is to play through the gaps in that set up! Its suicidal. 

But hey, what do we know? Our coach is paid millions a year to turn out this shit. 

It's ridiculous. A defensive midfielder is quite a straightforward role...you sit deep, break up the play and give a simple pass to the more talented forwards. Therefore the central defenders don't get confused because they always know where the DM is going to be. It's not hard.

Unless you have the budget for a defender midfielder who does everything well like the proverbial swiss army knife then the only reason for persisting with such tactics without the personnel is pure ego. I'm a tactical genius so whatever I say must work if the players listen to me. I blame Pep at Man.City. He can afford to be expansive and tactically demanding he has always had the astronomical budget and playing talent to do it.
​​​​​​
Anybody else is just cruising for a bruising - pride or ego comes before a fall. 

 

 

Indeed. 100% agree with the ego part. 

And its not just the DM that gets made to look silly either. As you said, the CB's know the DM is there to protect them. If he gets by-passed, most CB's know that its now down to them. But how many times this season have you seen one of the CB's commit to tackles against oncoming midfielders that they have no chance of winning. Loads. And I think its down to confusion as they can't see the DM. Or they commit knowing the DM is behind them but the DM isn't aligned to the other CB, this leaves the DM and the remaining CB too open with too much space around them to exploit. 

I mean, its getting a little technical, but I think ultimately, its this technical system that is creating the confusion. As I have said before, there is nothing worse than playing football when you aren't sure about your job or your position. It can make good players look bad.

And when you have a coach that is making good players look bad because of his methods, the club need to have a good look. Yes, the players haven't covered themselves in glory this season by any means, but they haven't been helped by over complicated and unnecessary tactics. 

[Sir Alf]

Not sure if true but some journo at the Guardian ( I think ) claims the reason Sullivan and board did not sack Lopetegui or at least are very reluctant to is wait… because the cost of paying him and his staff off in addition to getting a new bloke and coaching staff on will be over 5 million and possibly more. This apparently would push us over our PSR limit.  Classic Sullivan. An accountant’s mind where he knows the cost of everything but value of nothing.  Bets on the certainty of saving 5-10 million but passes up the possibility of a new manager/coach getting us 7 places up the table ( whats that 15 million in prize money ?) and entry into Europe.

More like Sullivan just cannot admit or be seen to be culpable ( only in his mind ) of yet another wrong choice of manager.  To his credit, Sullivan knows how to make money via property ( porn got him his initial wealth but property deals and things like buying West Ham and LS stadium con job made it to over a billion )  but when it comes to his football related judgement and choices of managers, players, training facilities he is without doubt a serial failure.  Some will say but what about AWB. Yes AWB and Lanzini have arguably been his 2 successes in 14 years but 53 strikers and probably as many outfield players have been largely duds. Coaches/ managers? Hmmm Moyes but more by luck than judgement.

Sullivan = Football’s serial failure.  Shame he runs our fvcking club

 

[eusebiovic]

Out of curiosity, since so many thinks our defen6is so shit.

Who should we have bought?
Or who would fix our problems if we could choose anyone?

 

It's a fair Q, but the answer isn't 'just' about defensive players. It's also about the system we play, how we play it and which defensive midfielders sit in front of that back four.

There are so many variables. high line, low block, all that shit. One or two primarily defensive players in front of the back four etc.

One thing we surely have to do with Lopetegui is get him to ditch that STUPID thing he does with the full-backs, where he still picks games where he tries to tuck the in close to his centre halves - to create a central low block when we're defending our own half. It's fucking insane and just invites possession against you, because your wide attacking opponents always have space and are a passing option.

Lopetegui sort of ditched the mad idea for a few games, but it has crept back in to some of his tactics recently.

He's massively over-thinking how he wants to use his full-backs. Just let them play vertically. We have two good full-backs in AWB and Emerson (even Coufal is still solid). But stop fannying around with them and let them play a system and a style they're used to: they'll be better for it and our defending will improve. That last game, with AWB on the left and Emerson in front of him, was fucking nuts. Again.

The centre halves are a problem. Kilman is a lower half of the Premier League player - at best. And we spunked £40m on him. He reads the game well and has decent positional sense. But he is painfully slow for the modern game, and it leaves him very exposed. Even more so when he's alongside Mav - who I would say is a relegation standard CB because he just makes too many mistakes. Todibo looks very good at times, but he's had injuries and, if the rumours are to be believed, fell out with the manager.

Good post. The assessment of the FB's and CB's is exactly what the problem is. 

But add to that also that, for some reason, Lope has complicated the DM position by doing this 'up and down' role that see's the DM move into midfield when we have the ball and then into sweeper role when we are defending. Alvarez was made to look a right muppet by this system twice this season. The CB's don't like it either and so when the DM plays as a sweeper they naturally push wider but then, as you say, our FB's are tucking in, so it leaves you with this scenario:

-----------------------------------DM

----------FB-----CB------------------------------CB------FB

-------------------------CM---------------CM

I mean, Jesus, you don't need to be a bran surgeon to see how easy it is to play through the gaps in that set up! Its suicidal. 

But hey, what do we know? Our coach is paid millions a year to turn out this shit. 

It's ridiculous. A defensive midfielder is quite a straightforward role...you sit deep, break up the play and give a simple pass to the more talented forwards. Therefore the central defenders don't get confused because they always know where the DM is going to be. It's not hard.

Unless you have the budget for a defender midfielder who does everything well like the proverbial swiss army knife then the only reason for persisting with such tactics without the personnel is pure ego. I'm a tactical genius so whatever I say must work if the players listen to me. I blame Pep at Man.City. He can afford to be expansive and tactically demanding he has always had the astronomical budget and playing talent to do it.
​​​​​​
Anybody else is just cruising for a bruising - pride or ego comes before a fall. 

[Russ of the BML]

Out of curiosity, since so many thinks our defen6is so shit.

Who should we have bought?
Or who would fix our problems if we could choose anyone?

 

It's a fair Q, but the answer isn't 'just' about defensive players. It's also about the system we play, how we play it and which defensive midfielders sit in front of that back four.

There are so many variables. high line, low block, all that shit. One or two primarily defensive players in front of the back four etc.

One thing we surely have to do with Lopetegui is get him to ditch that STUPID thing he does with the full-backs, where he still picks games where he tries to tuck the in close to his centre halves - to create a central low block when we're defending our own half. It's fucking insane and just invites possession against you, because your wide attacking opponents always have space and are a passing option.

Lopetegui sort of ditched the mad idea for a few games, but it has crept back in to some of his tactics recently.

He's massively over-thinking how he wants to use his full-backs. Just let them play vertically. We have two good full-backs in AWB and Emerson (even Coufal is still solid). But stop fannying around with them and let them play a system and a style they're used to: they'll be better for it and our defending will improve. That last game, with AWB on the left and Emerson in front of him, was fucking nuts. Again.

The centre halves are a problem. Kilman is a lower half of the Premier League player - at best. And we spunked £40m on him. He reads the game well and has decent positional sense. But he is painfully slow for the modern game, and it leaves him very exposed. Even more so when he's alongside Mav - who I would say is a relegation standard CB because he just makes too many mistakes. Todibo looks very good at times, but he's had injuries and, if the rumours are to be believed, fell out with the manager.

Good post. The assessment of the FB's and CB's is exactly what the problem is. 

But add to that also that, for some reason, Lope has complicated the DM position by doing this 'up and down' role that see's the DM move into midfield when we have the ball and then into sweeper role when we are defending. Alvarez was made to look a right muppet by this system twice this season. The CB's don't like it either and so when the DM plays as a sweeper they naturally push wider but then, as you say, our FB's are tucking in, so it leaves you with this scenario:

-----------------------------------DM

----------FB-----CB------------------------------CB------FB

-------------------------CM---------------CM

I mean, Jesus, you don't need to be a bran surgeon to see how easy it is to play through the gaps in that set up! Its suicidal. 

But hey, what do we know? Our coach is paid millions a year to turn out this shit. 

[Manuel]

Massive - There are very few things in life worse than a cսnt who can't admit he is wrong. This disaster is taking us absolutely nowhere, it's not even a debate.

[northbankboy68]

Pete May talking bollocks to The Guardian:Happy with the manager? It was never going to be easy implementing a new style and rebuilding an ageing side. Lopetegui’s been unlucky with the injury to Füllkrug. But he hasn’t won the hearts of the fans and has struggled to communicate his ideas. Loppy doesn’t seem to know his best side or what to do with the £27m Summerville, who is the first to be dropped. The defence, despite being rebuilt, has looked as leaky as last season – we’ve collapsed against the top teams. Technical director Tim Steidten must also take some blame for misfiring signings and spending £25m on Guilherme who has barely played. However, beating Newcastle was impressive and we did manage to win El Sackico, but things must improve as there’s a lack of identity to the side.We will finish … 12th.

[Massive Attack]

Of course it does when the Keepers due to age and quality weren't good enough and I called it at the start of the season we should have got a new younger one in. We also needed a 4th senior Centre Half as 3 wasn't enough for me, especially as I wasn't convinced on Mavropanos as our only senior back-up. 

injuries have definitely effected our defence in goal (Southampton/Liverpool), Left Back where we've played Wan-Bissaka there when Cresswell hasn't been avaliable, Todibo with his persistent injuries where he played against Spurs with a knee injury and other times struggling to make games and finish them..

https://sports.yahoo.com/west-ham-jean- ... 00690.html

And the manager has to take his share of the blame too which I pointed out, contrary to your belief I was excusing him. 
 

[onsideman]

Obsessedman... genius

Someone has to pick you up.

Well we can discount the recruitment because as bad as it was that doesn't impact stability.

The fact is there have been multiple occasions when the 'generally accepted' best back 4 have all been available. Our man was slow to introduce Todibo then quick to drop him (which is what happened... not nursing an injury or being rested), then he'll select AWB as a left back, with Emerson as a left winger and Coufal as a right back. Our man made Areola his number one then swapped back to Fabianski. So I think that's changes due to one suspension and one early retirement through injury in 18 games?

Only one person really to blame for an unsettled back 4 (or 5) so it's disingenuous to imply otherwise 

[Massive Attack]

True. I'd argue he hasn't had a regular decent Centre back partnership though with it constantly chopping and changing between Mavropanos and Todibo. We've not even had a settled Goalkeeper with it flitting between Areola at the start to Fabianski. He's even had to put up with a makeshift Left Back as well beside him on topos everything else at times.

If I thought we had a settled Defence of quality that could cope then I'd expect to see Kilman to perform much better. But whether he looks behind him, in front of him, to his left or right it's always changed and it's making him look a lot worse than he actually is. 

It's of little wonder to me as to why we are so inconsistent defensively as a Team with all that to contend with. 

Tell me you're not seriously holding anyone other than him responsible for having an unsettled back 4? He's the wanker that doesn't know who he prefers. I'm not sure there's anything you wouldn't forgive him for

A combination of the manager, injuries and poor recruitment have all effected the poor continuity. So no, he isn't excused but classic of you to assume it, obsessedman. 

[onsideman]

True. I'd argue he hasn't had a regular decent Centre back partnership though with it constantly chopping and changing between Mavropanos and Todibo. We've not even had a settled Goalkeeper with it flitting between Areola at the start to Fabianski. He's even had to put up with a makeshift Left Back as well beside him on topos everything else at times.

If I thought we had a settled Defence of quality that could cope then I'd expect to see Kilman to perform much better. But whether he looks behind him, in front of him, to his left or right it's always changed and it's making him look a lot worse than he actually is. 

It's of little wonder to me as to why we are so inconsistent defensively as a Team with all that to contend with. 

Tell me you're not seriously holding anyone other than him responsible for having an unsettled back 4? He's the wanker that doesn't know who he prefers. I'm not sure there's anything you wouldn't forgive him for

[Solidbond1]

The soft spot in front of our centre backs has been there since Rice departed I was banging on about it all last season especially how poor Alvarez was as a holding midfielder, he has been dire and our   centre backs in that time have all suffered a loss in form weather it be  Zouma,Aguerd,Mavros or Kilman .Capable defensive midfielder would be my priority this window along with a striker now after todays news

[Massive Attack]

Hear what you're saying, MA, but don't forget: Wolves were fortunate to finish 13th that season. Sure, they improved under Lopetegui. No doubt. But they did not tear-up the league and they shipped goals. Only four sides had worse goals records.

 

It wasn't fortunate at all. He instantly got a tune out of a side bereft of any confidence when he took them over on the foot of the table and comfortably got them one place above uber defensive Moyes West Ham side. 

But even if that were true, it HASN’T happened at West Ham. Lopetegui’s defence, with Kilman at the heart of it, has continued to ship far too many goals. He doesn’t look anything like a £40m player. That has to be said.

True. I'd argue he hasn't had a regular decent Centre back partnership though with it constantly chopping and changing between Mavropanos and Todibo. We've not even had a settled Goalkeeper with it flitting between Areola at the start to Fabianski. He's even had to put up with a makeshift Left Back as well beside him on topos everything else at times.

If I thought we had a settled Defence of quality that could cope then I'd expect to see Kilman to perform much better. But whether he looks behind him, in front of him, to his left or right it's always changed and it's making him look a lot worse than he actually is. 

It's of little wonder to me as to why we are so inconsistent defensively as a Team with all that to contend with. 

[southbankbornnbred]

 

Kilman proved he can work fine in a Lopetegui side defensively at Wolves. He isn't the issue, it's those around him that drag him down to their level..

*looks in Mavropanos/Rodriguez/Alvarez direction*

All slow, an accident waiting to happen, gift fouls too easily and poor positionally. Kilmans forever fire fighting and baby sitting them when Todibo's out the side struggling to last more than 1 half a game.

Hear what you're saying, MA, but don't forget: Wolves were fortunate to finish 13th that season. Sure, they improved under Lopetegui. No doubt. But they did not tear-up the league and they shipped goals. Only four sides had worse goals records.

 

It wasn't fortunate at all. He instantly got a tune out of a side bereft of any confidence when he took them over on the foot of the table and comfortably got them one place above uber defensive Moyes West Ham side. 

But even if that were true, it HASN’T happened at West Ham. Lopetegui’s defence, with Kilman at the heart of it, has continued to ship far too many goals. He doesn’t look anything like a £40m player. That has to be said.

[Massive Attack]

I actually think Aguerd would have been better suited to the way we play now, and Kilman is better suited to Moyesball.


 

Nah, Kilman can actually play with the ball at his feet and travel with ease with it. That would never do under Moyes and would probably get him a weekly fine for doing so on his watch. 

[Massive Attack]

 

AWB, Kilman, Emerson and Todibo are all decent PL players. We need some cover at CB that isn’t mavrapanos.
Kilman is okay, he’s not been perfect but I think he gets a hard time on here. You can have slow centre halves but you have to allow for that in the set up. Something we definitely don’t do.

 

Kilman proved he can work fine in a Lopetegui side defensively at Wolves. He isn't the issue, it's those around him that drag him down to their level..

*looks in Mavropanos/Rodriguez/Alvarez direction*

All slow, an accident waiting to happen, gift fouls too easily and poor positionally. Kilmans forever fire fighting and baby sitting them when Todibo's out the side struggling to last more than 1 half a game.

Hear what you're saying, MA, but don't forget: Wolves were fortunate to finish 13th that season. Sure, they improved under Lopetegui. No doubt. But they did not tear-up the league and they shipped goals. Only four sides had worse goals records.

 

 

It wasn't fortunate at all. He instantly got a tune out of a side bereft of any confidence when he took them over on the foot of the table and comfortably got them one place above uber defensive Moyes West Ham side. 

[goose]

I actually think Aguerd would have been better suited to the way we play now, and Kilman is better suited to Moyesball.