West Ham wins £3.6m London Stadium appeal

[Alan]

Sport Business

EXCLUSIVE: West Ham wins £3.6m London Stadium appeal

West Ham United has won an appeal against a £3.6m (€4.3m/$4.5m) payment it was forced to make to stadium landlord, the London Legacy Development Corporation, after Czech billionaire Daniel Kretinsky acquired a 27-per-cent share in the club.

[El Scorchio]

Interesting to be having this conversation today of all days when the government seem to have approved public fucking funding to redevelop Old Trafford for that poor hard up billionaire Jim Ratcliffe. 

[Takashi Miike]

If you'd gone there for any of the events at the Olympics, you'd have known it was completely unsuitable for a modern football team. That cunts like Gold completely lied about the seating plans, and got away with it still amazes me

[Pub Bigot]

The stadium itself is a massive shame, that the future of it was an afterthought, and any potential of it becoming an iconic stadium that hosted a successful olympics and football team was washed away. 

However, even then the surroundings are as soulless as the bowl itself.

Who fancies buying the old Big Breakfast house and turning it into a pub?

[southbankbornnbred]

A senior source of mine at the time, who was in the room when it was discussed, said the IOC and others literally "laughed" when they were told about Terry Brown's offer to part-fund a fraction of the cost of the stadium if it meant a Stade de France type arrangement.

The IOC talks "legacy" but barely gives a shit about it in practice. They just want vast sums spent on their Olympic Games and to be treated like gods by all bid cities in the process. It's a gigantic gravy train, but one that is incredibly popular with the public and therefore all too spineless as a process.

[southbankbornnbred]

I can understand why they may not have entertained the idea of a football club taking over the stadium or becoming tenants, only if they had a viable alternative.

But it's quite clear that had absolutely no idea, or a vastly unrealistic idea of what the stadium would become after the Olympics.

Seb Coe should have known better that there are only a few Athletics events that draw those big crowds most of them aren't annual or even likely to be held in London.  At a push you could hold the British Athletics Champs and a Diamond League meet there, but after that you're really struggling.

People tend to overlook this lack of forward planning from Coe and co.


 

I agree.

Coe gets a very easy ride from a supine media.

He delivered the Olympics - his main job/aim - so they forgive him a shedload of poor decisions far too easily, in my view.

Coe is 100% an athletics man. Hence, his determination to land the IAAF role. So with the IOC insisting on a legacy athletics track, which they were, Coe was all too keen to lavish them with that demand. And it has left us with a shit stadium for any other activity, plus a (currently) predicted £1.5bn cost to taxpayers over the lifetime of West Ham's contract. On top of the estimated £800m it cost to acquire, build and refurb.

The flip side, if we are to make any attempt to be "fair" to Coe, is that it delivered the Olympics to London. Which was his ultimate aim. Remember, almost none of the people involved gave a flying shit about West Ham Utd FC. We were well-funded (in sports terms) window dressing to all of them. They just assumed what we'd want and, eventually, they found a board all too keen to go along with most of the "legacy" nonsense.

[scott_d]

I can understand why they may not have entertained the idea of a football club taking over the stadium or becoming tenants, only if they had a viable alternative.

But it's quite clear that had absolutely no idea, or a vastly unrealistic idea of what the stadium would become after the Olympics.

Seb Coe should have known better that there are only a few Athletics events that draw those big crowds most of them aren't annual or even likely to be held in London.  At a push you could hold the British Athletics Champs and a Diamond League meet there, but after that you're really struggling.

People tend to overlook this lack of forward planning from Coe and co.

 

[Takashi Miike]

"All this has ultimately achieved is lining those money grabbing wankers pockets in the Boardroom, not what's best for the Fans or Football Club"


Spot on. That's the only 'Legacy' that ever mattered, everywhere they've been 

[El Scorchio]

All it really needed was for an allowance for retractable seating like the stade de France. Then all options were on the table for legacy, but to your point SBBB, I can understand a bit more why they might not have entertained that now even though with the power of foresight it would have been a far wiser investment. 

Clusterfuck is the right word though. Too many cooks making a massive fucking mess. 

[Massive Attack]

Out of interest, what would be anyone's educated guess as to how much it would roughly cost to demolish/dismantle the current mechano set stadium?

[southbankbornnbred]

Southbank

It wasn't that they couldn't have had a "legacy", it was that they were hell bent on not even entertaining a design that would incorporate one suitable for Football from the beginning of construction, as well as athletics. Think along the lines of what they did for Wembleys construction, ironically never used for Athletics but the design is suitably incorporated in to the design if they so wish to convert it, as well as being fit for purpose for Football. We could have done something like that but they just weren't interested, only the needs of Athletics first and foremost. And we are all now where we are, Athletics barely using it in a bodge job after-thought costly design and upkeep that's still not really fit for purpose for Football/West Ham United the way that it could and should have been in the first place to suit everyone.

I was one of those who was so vocal about it all dead against the move way back then and predicted this would all happen and that the move was not right for us. Sadly so many initially fell for their bullshit lies, like inviting thousands of fans to come and have a look at the razzle dazzle spectacle of it all at Westfield and GSB managed to hoodwink many believing in their money making spin machine. Even to the point of hiring Youtelluswhatyouwannaheargov to initiate pointless loaded questionnaires so to gaslight the fans in to believing this is really what we want. It was all a bollocks and I'll never forgive those bastards for what they've done. 

All this has ultimately achieved is lining those money grabbing wankers pockets in the Boardroom, not what's best for the Fans or Football Club.

It ultimately needs levelling and starting again if we end up with it once and for all. 


 

I don't necessarily disagree, Massive. I was hugely sceptical, like many. When Livingstone told me what he supported as a proposal, I much preferred the idea of a bespoke new stadium - of whatever size and cost we could afford - at West Ham (station). That was assuming we couldn't extend UP much more above 40,000 because of the flats jammed up against the back of the east stand. Ideally, I'd have stayed at UP.

The problem was that a bunch of ill-informed politicians and people in suits thought that they were doing us all a favour by having us as part of the potential "legacy" - by just plonking us in an athletics stadium like you often have abroad (Rome etc). These were often the sort of people who, back in the 80s when Thatcher declared war on football, would not have pissed on the sport had it been on fire. So they thought they were throwing us a bone by "allowing" us to play in their publicly-funded Olympic stadium. They literally didn't care about fans being close to the pitch and sight lines etc. They thought that either we, or Spurs (which was always unlikely), would love to be part of the new stadium.

Add our over-eager board into the mix, because they saw pound signs and a huge return on their investment (which they will now get), and it was a toxic combination. For the people who really matter - the fans.

But not a huge amount we can now do. Buy the site, eventually, and see what can be done then.

[Massive Attack]

Southbank

It wasn't that they couldn't have had a "legacy", it was that they were hell bent on not even entertaining a design that would incorporate one suitable for Football from the beginning of construction, as well as athletics. Think along the lines of what they did for Wembleys construction, ironically never used for Athletics but the design is suitably incorporated in to the design if they so wish to convert it, as well as being fit for purpose for Football. We could have done something like that but they just weren't interested, only the needs of Athletics first and foremost. And we are all now where we are, Athletics barely using it in a bodge job after-thought costly design and upkeep that's still not really fit for purpose for Football/West Ham United the way that it could and should have been in the first place to suit everyone.

I was one of those who was so vocal about it all dead against the move way back then and predicted this would all happen and that the move was not right for us. Sadly so many initially fell for their bullshit lies, like inviting thousands of fans to come and have a look at the razzle dazzle spectacle of it all at Westfield and GSB managed to hoodwink many believing in their money making spin machine. Even to the point of hiring Youtelluswhatyouwannaheargov to initiate pointless loaded questionnaires so to gaslight the fans in to believing this is really what we want. It was all a bollocks and I'll never forgive those bastards for what they've done. 

All this has ultimately achieved is lining those money grabbing wankers pockets in the Boardroom, not what's best for the Fans or Football Club.

It ultimately needs levelling and starting again if we end up with it once and for all. 

 

[southbankbornnbred]

I actually liked the proposal that Livingstone supported for West Ham - which was to build a new, bespoke football stadium close to West Ham station. In that triangle between the gas works, postal depot and train tracks. He said that, as mayor, he would have supported it and ensured it got planning permission. Robin Wales, the then mayor of Newham would probably have backed it, too.

But we would have to find the cash, which is presumably why Brown offered to part-fund the "legacy" Olympic stadium instead. He offered a fraction of the cost, and the IOC etc balked at the idea.

[southbankbornnbred]

I broke the story about the stadium and the core proposal in the media, btw. It followed a chat with Livingstone and many others - including the bid team. Could tell at the time that it would probably deliver the Games to London, but turn into a bit of a clusterfuck afterwards. But you didn't need to be Mystic Meg to see that coming: most of our fans knew it from day one.

 

[southbankbornnbred]

Just imagine how much better this would have worked for everyone if Coe and Jowell hadn’t been so far up their own arses and turned their noses up at football being played there and had it built into the design. Better for us and obscene amounts of public money saved. We have them over an absolute barrel now really. I don’t blame the owners for laughing in their faces about buying it. Sadly it means everyone except them loses. 




 

Exactly that. Couldn't believe their arrogance at the time and totally inflexible to other ways of doing it. 

But from Coe and Jowell's perspective, there was very little - almost no - chance that London would have landed the Olympic Games had their final offer on the stadium been one where the "legacy" was Premier League football.

We're talking about the hugely corrupt IOC here. Genuinely, they couldn't have cared less about West Ham and Premier League football. Their interpretation of "legacy" was an 80,000 athletics stadium that could never pay for itself. The IOC leaves almost all Olympic cities massively in debt and loaded down with white elephants. They don't care.

But the vote was on a knife edge, if you remember, and London was up against stiff competition. Rightly or wrongly, Coe (I'm not a fan of his, btw) gave the IOC certain commitments. To any rational person, none of them made sense. But it all pandered to the IOC and was done to ensure London landed the games.

Nobody thought through what that would really mean - primarily because the IOC never really give a shit. Despite all the talk of "legacy".

I guess what I'm saying is that, whether we likes them or not, the fault was not really with Coe and Jowell. They were just doing what they could to put London at the top of the vote (and screw the consequences). If you'd have asked Tessa Jowell and Ken Livingstone what they really wanted - which some of us did - then you'd have got a very different set of proposals. Coe doesn't care about football, one iota: he loved the idea of a legacy athletics stadium. Jowell, like all politicians, just wanted the ego-stroking legacy of being the politician who delivered a major event to the world.

Livingstone effectively vetoed Terry Brown's offer to put money into the stadium. He wanted West Ham to move to the site of the gasworks/postal depot near West Ham station, and to collapse a flat-pack 80,000 stadium down to 30,000 after the Games for athletics and, perhaps, Leyton Orient or a rugby club.

But all of them were worried about what the dodgy IOC would think.

Ego, flattery and corruption all paid a part.

[southbankbornnbred]

Just imagine how much better this would have worked for everyone if Coe and Jowell hadn’t been so far up their own arses and turned their noses up at football being played there and had it built into the design. Better for us and obscene amounts of public money saved. We have them over an absolute barrel now really. I don’t blame the owners for laughing in their faces about buying it. Sadly it means everyone except them loses. 



 

Exactly that. Couldn't believe their arrogance at the time and totally inflexible to other ways of doing it. 

But from Coe and Jowell's perspective, there was very little - almost no - chance that London would have landed the Olympic Games had their final offer on the stadium been one where the "legacy" was Premier League football.

We're talking about the hugely corrupt IOC here. Genuinely, they couldn't have cared less about West Ham and Premier League football. Their interpretation of "legacy" was an 80,000 athletics stadium that could never pay for itself. The IOC leaves almost all Olympic cities massively in debt and loaded down with white elephants. They don't care.

But the vote was on a knife edge, if you remember, and London was up against stiff competition. Rightly or wrongly, Coe (I'm not a fan of his, btw) gave the IOC certain commitments. To any rational person, none of them made sense. But it all pandered to the IOC and was done to ensure London landed the games.

Nobody thought through what that would really mean - primarily because the IOC never really give a shit. Despite all the talk of "legacy".

[Massive Attack]

Just imagine how much better this would have worked for everyone if Coe and Jowell hadn’t been so far up their own arses and turned their noses up at football being played there and had it built into the design. Better for us and obscene amounts of public money saved. We have them over an absolute barrel now really. I don’t blame the owners for laughing in their faces about buying it. Sadly it means everyone except them loses. 


 

Exactly that. Couldn't believe their arrogance at the time and totally inflexible to other ways of doing it. 

[Mex Martillo]

Just imagine how much better this would have worked for everyone if Coe and Jowell hadn’t been so far up their own arses and turned their noses up at football being played there and had it built into the design. Better for us and obscene amounts of public money saved. We have them over an absolute barrel now really. I don’t blame the owners for laughing in their faces about buying it. Sadly it means everyone except them loses. 


 

Yes, I wonder what percentage of that 15m loss is the salaries of LLDC?

[El Scorchio]

Just imagine how much better this would have worked for everyone if Coe and Jowell hadn’t been so far up their own arses and turned their noses up at football being played there and had it built into the design. Better for us and obscene amounts of public money saved. We have them over an absolute barrel now really. I don’t blame the owners for laughing in their faces about buying it. Sadly it means everyone except them loses. 

 

[southbankbornnbred]

The stadium is currently losing around £15m a year, even with us as anchor tenants. And currently, taxpayers are picking up that bill.

We've got another 90 years left on the lease, or something similar.

So that's a further cost to taxpayers of £1.35 billion over the lifetime of the contract - as things stand (losses may change, higher or lower).

So, the incentive is on the legacy twonks to offload it to us - because athletics will never cover the cost and events are extremely expensive to host if it involves moving the seats. But, as Gank said, it has already been offered to us for a song (I believe it was Gank who first tipped me off about it) - and we haven't bitten.

Brady ran rings round the public servants involved in negotiating the deal and, it seems, continues to do so. But it has left us with a soul-less athletics stadium in which the curvature of the Earth gets in the way of fans' views, and the taxpayer has been left with a huge bill that could run into further billions.

Still, it was all about "legacy" wasn't it, 2012..?!

[goose]

There’s such a wide range of costs across the PL it’s hard to get a benchmark.

i would guess somewhere around £10m a year to operate the stadium maybe? Who knows, but I think it’s telling that the only club who doesn’t own their stadium is the only one turning a profit. Probably why we’ve not bought the stadium when it’s been offered.

[scott_d]

appreciate also that there are additional match day costs involved that we are not having to pay for at the moment - but I expect there is more to gain than to lose.

 

[scott_d]

Anyone know the annual cost of operating the stadium?

we are the only PL club that turned a profit outside of player trading. Why would Sullivan wanna change this?

I think the operating costs might be somewhat irrelivant due to the utter incompetence of the people currently in charge of the statium.

If we took ownership we could benefit from all the profits from the matchday sales of food and drink for a small start.

If we were also able to negotiate that there are no athletics obligations then this would also have a big positive impact.

Then you look at the naming rights for the stadium itself which the LLDC have royally fucked up, we could earn extra millions through this (the current deal only gives us 50% of anything over 4million, which is currently 0.00, so we'd be up whatever deal we strike).

I think the club would do a far better job using that stadium to make money than the LLDC have and could turn a nice profit, which could in turn go back into converting the stadium permanently into a football stadium.

I think allot of this rests on whether we can rid the stadium of athletics, but from what I understand they are redeveloping Crystal Palace so once that's done that might work out for us?

[Gank]

The club don’t want it. It’s been offered for £1 as-is but Brady wants it converted first, neither party are willing to foot the bill for the conversion.

[Any Old Iron]

Well E20 lost £14.3 MILL in the last financial year. I’d guess that a lot of that loss is down to the high cost of religning the lower tier seating whenever there are various events held in the summer. 
All in all it’s an expensive shit show for E20 and LLDC (and the taxpayer) that surely can’t continue for much longer. 
 

[goose]

Anyone know the annual cost of operating the stadium?

we are the only PL club that turned a profit outside of player trading. Why would Sullivan wanna change this?