Squad Building for 25/26

[southbankbornnbred]

Good summary Nutsin. Potter reverted to a back 4 and got central midfield wrong relying on the slowest double pivot central midfield in the Premiership. A back 3 seems a better fit but also when Paqueta dropped deeper we had 3 in the central mid and stopped Brentford having so much space to run into when they countered. As u say, Paqueta has to play deeper with the game ahead of him.

Not writing Potter off yet but he has to learn we cannot  play a 2 person central midfield of Alvarez and Soucek and that Mavro in a 4 man back 4 us going to be risky. Hopefully wont see either mistakes repeated?  Main other thing we need is Ferguson and Todibo to get and stay fit

Yeah, interesting summaries, Alf and Nutsin.

I also think it’s far too early to judge Potter. These are not his players and there’s just no way he’d have signed most of them. I’m not saying he’ll rip it up at West Ham (who knows), but his teams don’t generally look like us right now.

This old, slow and tired squad has a LOT of problems. But by far the biggest problem I can see is in central defence.

Nutsin summed it up nicely: “Mavrapanos still getting in the side as a starter makes you wonder just how good he must show at practice all week because on match day he is always one of the worse players on the field.”

Its not that Mavrapanos is any good - he’s fucking terrible. A mistake waiting to happen. It’s just that we don’t have any depth, and the other centre halves are also woeful - or injury prone.

We’ve spent (or agreed to spend) a small  fortune on some absolute dross. Kilman is the worst £40m footballer I’ve ever seen. He has the turning circle of an oil tanker and regularly gets destroyed for pace over ten yards - let alone 20+. It means we can’t really play, or get, high up the pitch quickly enough. So he forces us to play a way that Potter probably doesn’t want. Absolute waste of that huge outlay. Slow, off the pace mentally, and too easily exposed because of it. His saving grace is that he doesn’t really make “mistakes” like Mavrapanos - and he is a battler. It’s just that his physical attributes are poor for the modern Premier League, where opponents are often athletes more than footballers.

Mavrapanos was in excess of £20m. We've agreed to spend £34m on Todibo, who is a good player but injury prone - and clearly nursing his way through the season. And we spent £30m on Aguerd who started well, deteriorated under Moyes and then got loaned out by a hopeless manager who had no idea what he was doing.

Thats £125m worth of “talent” and we’re catastrophically poor at the back.

Fixing that will take some doing. Who, for example, will want to sign Kilman at his fee/wages - unless it’s a move like a return to Wolves for half the money?

Moyes and Lopetegui royally lumped us in it.

I also have to say that Sullivan - and the departed (and largely over-rated) Steidten should hang his head in shame over the Kilman deal. How a chairman and technical director could let a new manager sign somebody so obviously limited for £40m and then put him on astronomical wages and a seven-year contract, is beyond me.

Club chairman rightly and wrongly get blamed for a lot of things - some within their control, some not. But that Kilman deal was akin to falling asleep at the wheel.

[El Scorchio]

It was probably one of the conditions of him signing. I guess the security makes up for the drop in wages so I get the demand from his POV.

However from the club's POV it's just stupid. At face value (the player for the fee) it is one of the better signings (i.e. he's not been utter shit or injured yet) while he's in his prime at 27-30 years old. What happens when his pace goes? We've got him until he's 34 now most likely because where will he get a better deal now and it'll turn from a decent deal short term into a fucking expensive millstone when he's sitting on the bench for allegedly 90k a week unless he can become a solid proper CB. A 3-4 year deal would have been a very solid one but 7 is crazy for anyone over the age of 24-25, on big wages. I actually thought we'd done a good deal here too, because I didn't realise it was such a long contract.

Just another stupid move by Sullivan all enchanted by 'oh he's played for Man U, he's proven, he was once a 50 million player' and he's good now. But with a huge backloaded poison pill which will hinder us financially for some years. This is why I pray to god he just sits back and doesn't fuck with what GP and KM are probably going to try and do. Othewise we'll just go round and round stuck in the same situations.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Only reason I can think of for these 7 year contracts for Kilman and AWB is that someone figured it was better for the accounts that way, seeing as transfer fees are spread across the length of the player's contract. Unfortunately, and in typical West Ham fashion, they only came up with this brainwave last summer, after the Premier League had already introduced a new maximum amortisation limit of just 5 years. 

[Eerie Decent]

7 year contract on nearly 100 bags a week.

He's the least of our worries at the moment, but at the same time, I don't think he's as good as some are rating him, including myself when we first signed him. I don't think he's that great as a wing back, but right back/right centre back he's fine.

[Lee Trundle]

I was just going to argue the point that AWB isn't that much of a disaster, if he's good enough to be a first teamer for the next 3 or 4 years.

Then I've seen that we've given him one of those 7 (SEVEN) year contracts.

How fucking stupid is Sullivan?

[Eerie Decent]

Some of the shouts on here ffs, we ain't getting £85mil for Kudus by any stretch, or £8mil for nearly 31 year old declining Emerson.

We could still get a good whack for Kudus, if he'd take the Saudi shekel, failing that, I'd take £40-£50mil to reinvest for players the manager can work better with. Emerson I would absolutely take a low fee, as his wages are astronomical, which would allow us a bit more freedom dough wise.

I'm really hoping we change our recruitment style in the summer, signing these players for £30-£40 mil has been a disaster over the last few seasons, as has 'bargains' like Emerson or AWB who come with mammoth wages. AWB will be a good player for the club, but there's definitely better all round value to be had.

[El Scorchio]

Oh and just for fun, out of the 3 players in the top 10 who have left (Scamacca, Haller, Anderson) they cost 126 million euros between them and left for a combined value of 50 million.

Felipe Anderson was sold in 2021 for LESS than we sold Andy Impey to Leicester for in 1998/99. 3m vs 3.1m Let that sink in, just how much of a disastrous transfer that was. Both were around the same age when they left (27/28)

[Sir Alf]

FMOB that list is depressing.  A symptom of a club with no leadership, vision or strategy.  It goes back all 14 years of the Sullivan / Brady ( formerly GSB ) era.   We get managers in to stay up (e.g. BFS, Moyes I and II stints ) we get managers in to implement an entertaining style and/or improve deteriorating results (e.g. Zola although pre-GSB?, Bilic, Pellegrini, Potter) while all the time the little Russian despot wannabe oversee's recruitment or actively meddles in it.  There are no constants in playing philosophy or style as a result of no vision or strategy and no leadership because the owner is a control freak and cries out for appreciation by actively involving himself, often on a reactive basis, in footballing matters he clearly does not have a clue about.  

We end up with a squad that is analogous to Frankenstein's monster as we have again this season where the remnants of Moyes' low block / fast counter and set piece playing squad had more ill fitting players added to it to supposedly support Lopetegui introducing a more entertaining, front foot, possession style.   Hence even the high cost players in the squad hugely underperform and lose us multi millions year on year.

It all sits at the feet of our owner.   And because of his personality defects or whatever his patience and ours is wafer thin, he makes a change of coach and does not think about continuity or evolution but "throws the baby out with the bath water" because he now wants instant success made worse by tasting great European nights. Those nights helped mask the suitability of the LS and his year on year "Fire, aim, ready", short term approach to just about everything.

Potter is going to need to sure progress soon too.  Fans expectations have risen as a result of the european experiences.  We don't know if Potter is the long term answer but he like anyone who comes to West Ham has and will have an enormous job on their hands to improve us and keep their job.   The unsweetened truth is the odds are firmly stacked against any manager being able to reverse the latest mess Sullivan has created.

Happy Wednesday 

[El Scorchio]

Unfortunately you are probably right Scorch.  Emerson I was thinking we might get £5 - 10 if interest from Juventus? still there so included just to get something. I'm glad Cornet got an assist and scored in consecutive games at Genoa.  Again might get £5-10 mill if he continues to improve.  Otherwise its Kudus or Paqueta or both. Didnt mention them hoping we can retain them but there is the question of whether they ( especially Kudus ) can play in a team that is less direct?  We need him to find some form in the remaining games somehow because the noise coming from Sullivan as usual is that we're skint or cannot spend much and we need those 2 athletic midfielders and goalkeeper just to steer clear of a relegation fight. They are IMO that important.   

I also didn't mention the point you and others make about young prospects like Noble has secured in Cummings from Celtic. They have to be recruited for the future in addition to the "read now" 3 I listed.  Some don't work out but if developed and potential realised they are the key to sustained improvement. In fact the only way to address the huge unfair financial advantage the rich 4 or 5 have established since the Premiership started. 

 

 

Completely agree. Emerson is an interesting one. If we can get 8-10 mill then it's more beneficial to take the money while there is some value to recoup but if we can only get 3-5 million is it actually worth selling and creating a need to buy someone else to fill the new gap in the squad who would undoubtedly cost more than that? Same with Mavropanos- can we get more than just a nominal fee?. If so then sell/ Otherwise, there's almost more value to holding on to him and 1-2 others as squad players in the short term just for bodies/injuries if nothing else. 

I'm also starting to wonder as you say if Kudus is a bit of a 'Moyes special' like Arnie or Antonio, just a really good fit for that system but not so good in a different role. He was usually one on one with space to run into with the ball and defenders retreating last season with either a route to goal or a clear pass to another runner in space. This season he's having to play in far more congested and tighter areas. He's got the strength and skill clearly to beat a player some of the time and progress forward but does he have the nous (or can it be taught) to learn when it's far better to play the obvious quick pass rather than turning into trouble and losing the ball? I hope he's not been found out. He's going to have to adapt. I don;t think he's got the cleverness of Bowen to find different spaces or pockets, and know when it's just better to pass than try to bulldoze through. It was very frustrating on Saturday to see it multiple times. I hope he can learn. It would be pretty disastrous to have bought yet another player for a fair wedge who's value just depreciates hugely after a stint at West Ham be that down to poor talent spotting or a poor fit for the way we are trying to play. Sick of buying people just on a name with no plan as to how they actually fit what the manager is trying to do, or just buying players who are no way as good as their price tag. Attribute whichever you wish to the following

Felipe Anderson
Haller
Scamacca
Kilman
Alvarez
Zouma
Aguerd ?
Ward Prowse
Vlasic
Fullkrug
Kudus ?
Paqueta ?

That's 12 or our most expensive 14 signings in history. The only two we are even likely to recoup our money on are Kudus and Paqueta. The rest have all been jettisoned at a huge loss, or will leave for a huge loss when the time comes and were almost all abject failures at West Ham. I guess Aguerd could come back and be value under Potter but it's probably unlikely. They are all pretty much disasters aside from Kudus, Paqueta and maybe 1-2 others. JWP, Fullkrug, Alvarez and Kilman could still offer some value in terms of on the pitch at least, but we will make an enormous loss on all of them when they leave- if we can even shift them at all (Kilman). 

God that's depressing.

[Lee Trundle]

I get the impression Kudus has already checked out, which is why his form is a bit shit.

I'd be looking to sell in the summer.  Bowen will constantly keep him out the team in his best position.

[LJC]

Does it make sense to sell Kudus when his value has dropped?  Surely have some faith in Potter to get him back to his best rather than cashing in on someone whos value will be way below their potential? 

He is off form, he isn't shit. We need to get him back firing not sell him. 


 

I mean, that’s a fair argument as well.

[Rossal]

Does it make sense to sell Kudus when his value has dropped?  Surely have some faith in Potter to get him back to his best rather than cashing in on someone whos value will be way below their potential? 

He is off form, he isn't shit. We need to get him back firing not sell him. 

 

[LJC]

If we can get £70m plus for Kudus and Paqueta then I would sell them. I really don’t think they bring that much to the side and are hit and miss. The problem is that for different reasons their value has dropped massively.

I think if you gave £70m plus to Potter and team then I think he would be able to bring in players that would improve the side more than keeping those two on would.

Obviously the big problem is you are adding to the out list and increasing the number of players needing to be replaced.

[Sir Alf]

"ready now"  even

[Sir Alf]

Unfortunately you are probably right Scorch.  Emerson I was thinking we might get £5 - 10 if interest from Juventus? still there so included just to get something. I'm glad Cornet got an assist and scored in consecutive games at Genoa.  Again might get £5-10 mill if he continues to improve.  Otherwise its Kudus or Paqueta or both. Didnt mention them hoping we can retain them but there is the question of whether they ( especially Kudus ) can play in a team that is less direct?  We need him to find some form in the remaining games somehow because the noise coming from Sullivan as usual is that we're skint or cannot spend much and we need those 2 athletic midfielders and goalkeeper just to steer clear of a relegation fight. They are IMO that important.   

I also didn't mention the point you and others make about young prospects like Noble has secured in Cummings from Celtic. They have to be recruited for the future in addition to the "read now" 3 I listed.  Some don't work out but if developed and potential realised they are the key to sustained improvement. In fact the only way to address the huge unfair financial advantage the rich 4 or 5 have established since the Premiership started. 

[El Scorchio]

Absolute must haves for next season IMHO and would rather we spend most of our budget on these 2 positions ( based on assumptions further down).
2 athletic central midfielders ( the missing "legs") , one defensive oriented, the other more of the box-to-box type
Goalkeeper that can use his feet and of course still good at the saving shots and clearing or catching from corners etc.

Assumptions:
That's the priorities assuming we keep Ferguson somehow,
Keep Aguerd and Todibo / they are fit and deemed a good fit for Potter ball
Scarles steps up to first choice left back / wing back
Potts, Orford, Guilherme  step up fully into the squad
Find cover or a solution for left back to rotate with Scarles 

Sell / Bin / Do not Renew:
Emerson, Mavropanos, Irvine, Cresswell, Zouma, Ings, Coufal, Fab ( ), Cornet, 


 

What's depressing is out of the Sell category, we can expect absolutely fuck all money for most of them, so bad has been our transfer policy. (Cresswell, Fab and maybe Coufal excepted, who at least have contributed several years service and been of value to the team even if they go for little/no fee) Unless Emerson is going for more than a nominal fee which brings funds, I'd probably keep him a little longer- at least he can play two positions and we will need more than just Scarles there.

I also think one of Kudus or Paqueta will leave. I guess Kudus as unless Paqueta is cleared, he'd go for only a fraction of his true value.

[Sir Alf]

Absolute must haves for next season IMHO and would rather we spend most of our budget on these 2 positions ( based on assumptions further down).
2 athletic central midfielders ( the missing "legs") , one defensive oriented, the other more of the box-to-box type
Goalkeeper that can use his feet and of course still good at the saving shots and clearing or catching from corners etc.

Assumptions:
That's the priorities assuming we keep Ferguson somehow,
Keep Aguerd and Todibo / they are fit and deemed a good fit for Potter ball
Scarles steps up to first choice left back / wing back
Potts, Orford, Guilherme  step up fully into the squad
Find cover or a solution for left back to rotate with Scarles 

Sell / Bin / Do not Renew:
Emerson, Mavropanos, Irvine, Cresswell, Zouma, Ings, Coufal, Fab ( ), Cornet, 
 

[Mad Ferret]

Keep:
Areola, Fab, Foderingham
Coufal, Todibo, Kilman, AWB, Emerson, Scarles, Aguerd
Soler, JWP, Paqueta, Alvarez, Soucek, Irving
Summerville, Fullkrug, Kudus, Bowen, Ings

Bin:
Hegyi
Cresswell, Mavropanos, Zouma
Guilherme, Guido, Earthy, Potts
Antonio, Cornet, Marshall


 

[El Scorchio]

I think we've got to become comfortable with the idea of the club signing some young 'nobodies'/prospects who will take a year or two to be ready, despite the need for immediate impact in some positions and put trust in Potter and Macauley. It's the only way we are going to progress in a sustainable/long term fashion. We need to kick start a conveyer belt and succession plan for the first XI which has been absolutely woefully lacking for years and years. There's no point in kicking that down the road any longer. We have a manager who will commit to that way of long term thinking, provided he's given time and confidence by the owner despite his worst instincts to pull the plug and revert to short termism the moment something doesn't reap immediate rewards.

I'd rather we rebuilt over a couple of years with an agreed 3-5 year plan/goal that Sullivan won't abandon than tried to put a load of sticking plasters over things in one summer and just dig ourselves deeper into the same hole we are already in.

Not saying we shouldn't bring in a couple of 'ready now' players in the positions we really need this summer, (CD, CM, CF) but a substantial portion of our recruitment has to be for the future rather than the now, so I hope we see some of that even if it means a few players staying on longer than we might think/hope.

[LJC]

Can’t say I’m clued up on all these players so can’t offer much opinion but in an effort for discussion… Some names being offered up on KUMB as suggestions:-

If Sunderland don’t go up: Rigge, Neil, Bellingham, Isidor.

Depending on how far Brugge go in the CL, prices etc: De Cuyper, Ordonez, Seys, Jashari, Talbi.

Celtic (doubt they will deal with us now): Johnston, Maeda, Hatate

 

[onsideman]

 

Agree. Areola isn't the big problem. We have far more pressing needs all over the park which need to be addressed first and a new keeper is a nice to have rather than a must have. Only big criticism is that his kicking is absolute dogshit. Still think he's a bit dodgy with crosses and commanding his box but no-one really crosses the ball any more.

We're never getting Kelleher anyway. Cost aside, he will have better offers from teams who can offer him European football, I am sure.

If we are going to continue to play out from the back - and with central defenders who aren't natural ball players - then I disagree. Areola is a HUGE problem. Or did you not see his kicking on Saturday?

All I remember was him making several wonder saves to keep it at 0-1.

I'm unsure as to how many wonder saves he made on Saturday. Genuinely interested in being reminded. I was so fucking cold and uncomfortable, maybe I didn't notice. I saw 2 disallowed goals and one that hit the outside of the post and every save seemed reasonably routine to me?

[Rossal]

Kellerher is the one to get. I think he would be an upgrade in Areola 

But even if Areola is the number 1 next year given his injury record we will need a better back up than Foderingham 

We need a rebuild buy doubt we will have the money too, relying on youth freebies and loans will probably be the plan with survival seen as the target 

Why do we need better backup than Foderingham? He was Sheff Utd's best player in a year where he played as their no 1 in the Prem. Plus Hegyi is highly rated, 22, and has now done two full seasons on senior football loans.

The two of them should duke it out to be first reserve keeper.

He is 34 and dogshit, not good enough to be a no 2.   Doubt Hegyi good enough either 

[stubbo]

Kellerher is the one to get. I think he would be an upgrade in Areola 

But even if Areola is the number 1 next year given his injury record we will need a better back up than Foderingham 

We need a rebuild buy doubt we will have the money too, relying on youth freebies and loans will probably be the plan with survival seen as the target 

Why do we need better backup than Foderingham? He was Sheff Utd's best player in a year where he played as their no 1 in the Prem. Plus Hegyi is highly rated, 22, and has now done two full seasons on senior football loans.

The two of them should duke it out to be first reserve keeper.

[El Scorchio]

I don’t mind Areola to be honest and if he was starting for us next season then I wouldn’t be too put out. An upgrade would be a bonus not a priority.

I think due to the size of the number of players we need to bring in it will have to be youths near the end of their contracts looking for playing time and freebies with sign ons.

I wonder if Landers will stay in the academy next season or is seen as part of the squad or even loaned out.

 

Agree. Areola isn't the big problem. We have far more pressing needs all over the park which need to be addressed first and a new keeper is a nice to have rather than a must have. Only big criticism is that his kicking is absolute dogshit. Still think he's a bit dodgy with crosses and commanding his box but no-one really crosses the ball any more.

We're never getting Kelleher anyway. Cost aside, he will have better offers from teams who can offer him European football, I am sure.

If we are going to continue to play out from the back - and with central defenders who aren't natural ball players - then I disagree. Areola is a HUGE problem. Or did you not see his kicking on Saturday?

Clearly I did see his kicking when I described it as 'dogshit' and my one percieved glaring weakness of him in the very post you're quoting. But kicking long and playing out from the back are the absolute antithesis of each other, so if we do keep playing out from the back which we clearly will try to, then his long kicking is a moot point anyway and if anything reinforces that it's more important to get better ball playing central defenders.instead of a new goalkeeper.

If it comes down to it, I'd much rather have a good shot stopper who is bad at hoofing it up the pitch than a dodgy keeper who can kick it accurately a long distance anyway. Even if he did kick it long better, we have no physical presence barring Ferguson to win it in those situations anyway so it's pretty pointless.

[Lee Trundle]

Sorry, I may have got the wrong end of the stick that you were looking to replace this summer.

[Ron Eff]

I find it a bit funny you, and many others (I know I'm in the minority), have that opinion on Areola, Ron Elf.

I've forgotten the amount of times over the last couple of years I've felt his wonder saves have kept us in the games or only kept the score at 0-2 instead of the usual 0-5 drubbing.

Are we not agreeing here? He makes the ridiculous saves better than the expected ones. I don’t see him as a huge problem personally, and it would not be a priority for me, but at the appropriate time I would probably prefer a bit more consistency.