The Official Politics Thread (enter at your own risk)

[Come On You Irons]

There. Resident WHO political commentators and gurus can knock yourselves out in here and conduct your endless bickering. All other threads will be locked.

[ironsofcanada]

Behind closed doors would be a good fucking start, on top of that vocal support, financial aid, training, and sanctions on Russia, it's not much but it's something. Putin has effectively been told he can do what he wants, and US will turn a blind eye.

So you are critical of Zelensky because the US tried multiple other times to do it behind closed doors. 


So your contention is that US sets up a big economic interest in the Ukraine, gets some their money back (big win economically but more so in domestic politcs) then Russia invades again and they "turn a blind eye"?

[Mr Anon]

Some of you lot's refusal to criticise that absolute circus displayed by Trump and Vance is telling, obviously Nutsin is a moronic lost cause but some of need to step back and think about what you're defending.

And all this negotiating with Putin business is naive at best. He must be laughing his head off, all it will do is legitimise the territory he's already annexed and allow him to regroup and get ready to invade Ukraine for a THIRD time. If any of you think he can be reasoned with and will be happy to stop then i worry about your gullibility.

lastly saying Trump is refreshing because he is candid and says exactly what he means then i've got news for you, he doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, how could he? Ukraine started the war? Zelensky is a dictator?  The man is either a moron or a pathological liar



 

 

Do you see any better way to handle this then?  Yes Trump is a blowhard and says some things that are taken out of context  and offend the wallflower community, but I make him right on not wanting to endlessly guarantee security of what is a non NATO country with nothing in return and allowing us to get sucked into future conflicts and wars which is a movie we've seen many times before. Let's see how the European Nations will handle Putin, maybe they can bankroll this war in perpetuity.

"Do you see any better way to handle this then? "

Behind closed doors would be a good fucking start, on top of that vocal support, financial aid, training, and sanctions on Russia, it's not much but it's something. Putin has effectively been told he can do what he wants, and US will turn a blind eye.

[northbankfrank]

Unfair to criticise Trump or Vance for anything they say or do.  They are clearly Putin's organ grinding monkeys.

[ironsofcanada]

There was absolutely no version of this where a deal would have been made.  

 

 

Complete rubbish.

The States tried two other times, once with Sec. Bessent, and once with Rubio and Vance.  Both times Zelensky said he would sign it later in the press.

If what you said was true, Zelesky was lying repeatedly and came to get something different in the moment.   Then he just plain lost in a live negotiation where he came in trying to be deceitful.

[nychammer]

Some of you lot's refusal to criticise that absolute circus displayed by Trump and Vance is telling, obviously Nutsin is a moronic lost cause but some of need to step back and think about what you're defending.

And all this negotiating with Putin business is naive at best. He must be laughing his head off, all it will do is legitimise the territory he's already annexed and allow him to regroup and get ready to invade Ukraine for a THIRD time. If any of you think he can be reasoned with and will be happy to stop then i worry about your gullibility.

lastly saying Trump is refreshing because he is candid and says exactly what he means then i've got news for you, he doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, how could he? Ukraine started the war? Zelensky is a dictator?  The man is either a moron or a pathological liar


 

 

 

Do you see any better way to handle this then?  Yes Trump is a blowhard and says some things that are taken out of context  and offend the wallflower community, but I make him right on not wanting to endlessly guarantee security of what is a non NATO country with nothing in return and allowing us to get sucked into future conflicts and wars which is a movie we've seen many times before. Let's see how the European Nations will handle Putin, maybe they can bankroll this war in perpetuity.

[Hammer I am]

 This was a setup, as clear as day, they had a plan to humiliate him. They spent the entire meeting goading Zelensky with shit like 'we would have had a deal by now if he didn't have so much hatred in his heart', poking fun at his attire, and pretending like they are the first administration that has even attempted diplomacy in this war.They were waiting for the moment Zelensky made even the smallest pushback, so they could throw in the 'its disrespectful' bullshit, when they had been disrespecting Ukraine the entire time, and justify abandoning Ukraine.There was absolutely no version of this where a deal would have been made.  Zelensky was there to try and win them over for continued aid

This was another bonespur moment for trump, a weaselly excuse to avoid defending democracy 

[ironsofcanada]

Some of you lot's refusal to criticise that absolute circus displayed by Trump and Vance is telling, obviously Nutsin is a moronic lost cause but some of need to step back and think about what you're defending.

And all this negotiating with Putin business is naive at best. He must be laughing his head off, all it will do is legitimise the territory he's already annexed and allow him to regroup and get ready to invade Ukraine for a THIRD time. If any of you think he can be reasoned with and will be happy to stop then i worry about your gullibility.

lastly saying Trump is refreshing because he is candid and says exactly what he means then i've got news for you, he doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, how could he? Ukraine started the war? Zelensky is a dictator?  The man is either a moron or a pathological liar



 

I would again ask if you watched the whole thing.  Most of it is quite cordial.  Then I would ask you what changed?


If you believe that we can't negotiate with Putin, it's a valid view.  But if so, Zelensky should have never been there.  Correct?

A lot of stupid things said in the heat there but it comes down to whether this deal is good for the Ukraine. If it is not, then I direct you above. 

One of the stupid things was trying to change the deal in a what amounts to a "smile and wave". 

[Mr Anon]

Some of you lot's refusal to criticise that absolute circus displayed by Trump and Vance is telling, obviously Nutsin is a moronic lost cause but some of need to step back and think about what you're defending.

And all this negotiating with Putin business is naive at best. He must be laughing his head off, all it will do is legitimise the territory he's already annexed and allow him to regroup and get ready to invade Ukraine for a THIRD time. If any of you think he can be reasoned with and will be happy to stop then i worry about your gullibility.

lastly saying Trump is refreshing because he is candid and says exactly what he means then i've got news for you, he doesn't believe a word of what he's saying, how could he? Ukraine started the war? Zelensky is a dictator?  The man is either a moron or a pathological liar
 

[nychammer]

There's 3 ways Ukraine situation can go:

1. Status Quo. US and allies continue to support Ukraine in defending themselves in a never ending war with Russia. This has already and could still go on for many years with many more lives lost

2. World War 3. US and allies put boots on the ground in the Region and actively attack Russian troops. Nobody wants that and it could end badly to put it mildly

3. Negotiated Peace. As unsavory as it may be to Ukraine, talk to Putin. Ukraine may have to cede territory (Crimea ?) to Russia in exchange for a peaceful co-existence. Ukraine can be assured of help and support if its required, but it dosen't come for free.
 

[ironsofcanada]

It wasn’t just the US. Macron and Starmer have both expected it after meetings this week.  With France holding mineral talks themselves since October. They also stated it was Ukraine that proposed a deal to begin with.

https://kyivindependent.com/france-has- ... ster-says/

Zelensky has obviously got cold feet as he hadn’t got specific details of the security guarantees in return, but seems to have burned his bridges.

Acknowledged by their own interviews in the media since, people like Susan Rice and Vindman were in Zelensky's ear. (Possibly Blinken and Nuland as well)

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

The US thought it had an agreement. 

But to say one side got bullied when it became a live "litigation," is like  saying one team destroyed another in a live football match.

Edit: so you are essentially blaming Zelensky's approach with that question.

 

 

It wasn’t just the US. Macron and Starmer have both expected it after meetings this week.  With France holding mineral talks themselves since October. They also stated it was Ukraine that proposed a deal to begin with.

https://kyivindependent.com/france-has- ... ster-says/

Zelensky has obviously got cold feet as he hadn’t got specific details of the security guarantees in return, but seems to have burned his bridges.

[ironsofcanada]

I think Trump & Vance were very disrespectful to a man who is essentially doing his utmost to save his country (in a few different ways).

it’s very easy to sit across from him and tell him what he should & shouldn’t be doing when you’re in a position of power. He stood up in front of congress to say thank you, and has done many times on the world stage. To keep saying he hasn’t said thanks is ridiculous.

 

 

The "thanks" thing is true.  But honestly is a side issue. 

The big thing was he kept intimating that you can't do diplomacy with Putin and then essentially outright said it.

Based on that he tried to change the deal live and got smacked down verbally for it.  He tried to make it a verbal contest and lost. 

"Utmost to save his country," and his position.  Like Trump and Vance were doing.   

[nychammer]

Why should the US continue to pour billions into a never ending war with nothing in return?. Z made it clear he's not interested in a peace deal involving the US, so dust off your wallets Europe, you're on your own with this war now. Lets see how they deal with Putin.

[goose]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

The US thought it had an agreement. 

But to say one side got bullied when it became a live "litigation," is like  saying one team destroyed another in a live football match.

Edit: so you are essentially blaming Zelensky's approach with that question.

 

 

I think Trump & Vance were very disrespectful to a man who is essentially doing his utmost to save his country (in a few different ways).

it’s very easy to sit across from him and tell him what he should & shouldn’t be doing when you’re in a position of power. He stood up in front of congress to say thank you, and has done many times on the world stage. To keep saying he hasn’t said thanks is ridiculous.

[XKhammer]

Trump is only interested in a deal involving money.
He is trying to exploit a country in deep deep problem. Only a fascist would back this act.
The show they put on last night was nothing short of a scandal, truly showing how little class Trump and his clowns has.
I have one single message to USA

FUCK OFF YOU CUNTS

First time I've agreed with your post.....spot on 

[ironsofcanada]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

The US thought it had an agreement. 

But to say one side got bullied when it became a live "litigation," is like  saying one team destroyed another in a live football match.

Edit: so you are essentially blaming Zelensky's approach with that question.

[cholo]

Surely you've got to treat Trump with kid gloves however distasteful you think it is? Going on about "security guarantees" was a big mistake. Trump clearly wanted to avoid the subject on live tv.

It made me laugh when Trump was asked about the Baltic nations and he fobbed it off because he obviously doesn't have a clue what those countries are.

Can't see any way back for Zelensky after this. It was always going to be difficult for him but I think he played his hand badly unfortunately.

[goose]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

[ironsofcanada]

Interesting take Nurse which actually made me think.

Watching it made me feel really uncomfortable, it was kind of playground stuff. I also felt they bullied Zelenskyy and used their position of power to make a show of him.

however, I do take your point about realism. It looked a bit like two guys arguing down the pub, maybe politics needs some more ‘real’ arguments and less of the polished performances which are often just for show.

Did you watch the whole thing?

I agree they bullied him. 

What tipped it off for me was Zelensky saying "What kind of diplomacy?"  His tone through the whole first 40 minutes was that diplomacy with Putin was not going to work.

You can agree with that and Zelensky certainly feels that way.

But if so why do you put you in front of cameras for the express purpose of announcing a deal that will require diplomacy with Putin.

If Zelensky was trying to change the deal live on camera, then there is going to be a reaction.  Think of a football match where you come with an adversarial game plan, you tried but the other guy bullied you and did it better. 

IF, he wanted something different than they were going to announce.

Either work the differences out in the backrooms or don't come at all. 

[ironsofcanada]

Trump is only interested in a deal involving money.
 

Search your soul, which poltician isn't?

Nobody wants to die, first.  Second everyone wants to enrich their people thereby keeping themselves in power (and enriching themselves).  

Which world leader do you see with other motives?

[ironsofcanada]

Where did I say I have a solution? 
I just posited an aphorism that is as true today as it was in Churchill's time. You know when almost everyone pooh poohed his "warmongering" stance but was later found to be right on the money.

The problem is - without another solution - the consequences of a full out shooting war with Putin are actually more dangerous than with Hitler. Hitler did not have nuclear weapons.  Ideologically we can try to be the same but practically we can't. 

[Keep dreaming]

Trump is only interested in a deal involving money.
He is trying to exploit a country in deep deep problem. Only a fascist would back this act.
The show they put on last night was nothing short of a scandal, truly showing how little class Trump and his clowns has.
I have one single message to USA

FUCK OFF YOU CUNTS

[Nurse Ratched]

What's the point? What would it add?

[Far Cough UKunt]

With all due respect, we can all pull out of our arses any number of quotes from statesman and philosophers from the past. 

Go on then?

[Nurse Ratched]

With all due respect, we can all pull out of our arses any number of quotes from statesman and philosophers from the past.