The Official Politics Thread (enter at your own risk)

[Come On You Irons]

There. Resident WHO political commentators and gurus can knock yourselves out in here and conduct your endless bickering. All other threads will be locked.

[ironsofcanada]

I think in his mind it's the only way he's ensured an intelligent conversation 

You need to do better in proving me wrong there, honestly. 

[Mr Anon]

Jesus Christ.

just got up to speed and half of it is ironsofcanada talking about himself

I think in his mind it's the only way he's ensured an intelligent conversation 

[ironsofcanada]

Jesus Christ.

just got up to speed and half of it is ironsofcanada talking about himself

Or you could argue the facts of the press conference

Either way is fine on WHO.

[ironsofcanada]

Well yes the think tank was, project 2025 was very much written with him winning in 2024 in mind though, the clue's in the title. 140 if his own staff past and present are documented as working on it 

 

 

Of course it was written with him in mind. 

Are they going to write it with Biden winning?  Or Chris Christie, Nikki Halley, DeSantis...? Trump was clearly going to be the candidate on their general side. 

High level politics is actually a pretty small world, conspiracy theories are constantly based on people working in multiple roles.

Again let's deal in facts and what has actually been done and said. 

[dealcanvey]

Jesus Christ.

just got up to speed and half of it is ironsofcanada talking about himself

[Mr Anon]

 

I never said he did did I, he doesn't read it write anything himself, he most likely commissioned it, just like his best selling book 

No.

Heritage Foundation was around well before him (70s i believe) and will probably outlast him. 

Well yes the think tank was, project 2025 was very much written with him winning in 2024 in mind though, the clue's in the title. 140 if his own staff past and present are documented as working on it 

[ironsofcanada]

 

I never said he did did I, he doesn't read it write anything himself, he most likely commissioned it, just like his best selling book 

No.

Heritage Foundation was around well before him (70s i believe) and will probably outlast him. 

[Mr Anon]

 

Oh I think we all know his faux concern for the birds was thrown in there, he has a real issue with any attempt at renewable energy, he lives for the black stuff! 

And ps I'm no fan of wind turbines to be honest, they're not the best solution, you hard boiled yolk enjoying oddity of humanity 

​​​​

But another issue.

You know Trump didn't write Project 2025, right? 

I never said he did did I, he doesn't read it write anything himself, he most likely commissioned it, just like his best selling book 

[ironsofcanada]

That is an interesting point, because most on the right traditionally dismiss the electric car as at best as bad for the environment as combustible if not worse. Personally I think there's some truth in that, is it renewable if you're charging it with oil and gas generated electricity for a start. Seems to defeat the purpose 

 

 

Depends on how you can generate your electricity, of course. (Bringing it back to wind farms).

I was working in government when people tried to get nuclear going here as an alternative. Died a quick and early PR death, for lots of reasons. 

Again, lots of complex interelated realities. 

[Mr Anon]

In terms of renewable energy id like to see us having another crack at geothermal and tidal, the roadblock seems to be materials not being up to the task something that surely be cracked with the right people (like musk) being put to the task 

 

[ironsofcanada]

 

Oh I think we all know his faux concern for the birds was thrown in there, he has a real issue with any attempt at renewable energy, he lives for the black stuff! 

And ps I'm no fan of wind turbines to be honest, they're not the best solution, you hard boiled yolk enjoying oddity of humanity 

​​​​

But another issue.

You know Trump didn't write Project 2025, right? 

[Mr Anon]

Oh I think we all know his faux concern for the birds was thrown in there, he has a real issue with any attempt at renewable energy, he lives for the black stuff! 

And ps I'm no fan of wind turbines to be honest, they're not the best solution, you hard boiled yolk enjoying oddity of humanity 

​​​​

I live in a land (specific area even) of both oil and wind farms. (The wind here).  We know the effectiveness of both.

But renewable raises on interesting point on the left for me.  You have Musk, who has done more to advance renewable transport than almost anyone in the last 10 years, made verbotten because he supports and is helping Trump.

That is the kind of blind (dis)loyalty I think is a problem. 

That is an interesting point, because most on the right traditionally dismiss the electric car as at best as bad for the environment as combustible if not worse. Personally I think there's some truth in that, is it renewable if you're charging it with oil and gas generated electricity for a start. Seems to defeat the purpose 

[ironsofcanada]

Oh I think we all know his faux concern for the birds was thrown in there, he has a real issue with any attempt at renewable energy, he lives for the black stuff! 

And ps I'm no fan of wind turbines to be honest, they're not the best solution, you hard boiled yolk enjoying oddity of humanity 

​​​​

I live in a land (specific area even) of both oil and wind farms. (The wind here).  We know the effectiveness of both.

But renewable raises on interesting point on the left for me.  You have Musk, who has done more to advance renewable transport than almost anyone in the last 10 years, made verbotten because he supports and is helping Trump.

That is the kind of blind (dis)loyalty I think is a problem. 

[ironsofcanada]

It's a juxtaposition his supporters seem happy to hold, I guess it's all they can do if they refuse to be critical of anything he does, not that I'm saying you're a trump supporter, I'm not sure what you are, the ultimate devils advocate maybe 

 

 

I am not a devil's advocate.

I have a strong principles but through experience (some of it in the world of politics) I know that going all or nothing for your principles, means you often get nothing. Which hurts people.

Nothing is perfect, perfectly good or bad.  Same with people.  So the second you start believing that you have a huge issue.

Unfortunately, and I am honest when I say that, this is the best deal available for the most people involved. We can argue that for sure.

But hero-worshipping either Zelensky or Trump is not the way to argue that. It's fundamentally flawed  So I asked to look at the actual things that were said and done.

[Mr Anon]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

https://www.project2025.observer/?sort=status-asc

He's all over the place on birds. Recently he was pushing for the removal of wind turbines, partly on the grounds that they murder birds. But I would guess you are a supporter of wind turbines, you runny egg yolk freak of nature.

Oh I think we all know his faux concern for the birds was thrown in there, he has a real issue with any attempt at renewable energy, he lives for the black stuff! 

And ps I'm no fan of wind turbines to be honest, they're not the best solution, you hard boiled yolk enjoying oddity of humanity 

​​​​

[ironsofcanada]

He's all over the place on birds. Recently he was pushing for the removal of wind turbines, partly on the grounds that they murder birds. But I would guess you are a supporter of wind turbines, you runny egg yolk freak of nature.

I wish we had a laugh reaction instead of just a thumbs up. 


That should have been a bullet point in Project 2025, in my esteemed opinion. 

[Hammer I am]

For someone earlier preaching respect in a debate you're very quick to sling veiled insults 

I am sorry but actually they were not veiled at all.  

I did call you a sucker if you believe everything  Trump says.  Sometimes harsh language is needed I guess.

I see you and others as the inverse of true MAGA.  You believe everything Trump says, you just think it's all bad while they think it's all good. 

But again sorry, I will agree to dial it back and discuss specifics of what both Zelensky and Trump/Vance said, like I originally asked.

 

 

I guess we have reached an impasse then, as honestly I think you're too quick to forgive and disregard Trump's more unhinged statements behind a blanket of "that's just what Trump does, if you believe that you'll believe anything" while simultaneously stating he says it like it is, straight talking guy, delivers what he promises etc etc. 

It's a juxtaposition his supporters seem happy to hold, I guess it's all they can do if they refuse to be critical of anything he does, not that I'm saying you're a trump supporter, I'm not sure what you are, the ultimate devils advocate maybe 

[Nurse Ratched]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

https://www.project2025.observer/?sort=status-asc

He's all over the place on birds. Recently he was pushing for the removal of wind turbines, partly on the grounds that they murder birds. But I would guess you are a supporter of wind turbines, you runny egg yolk freak of nature.

[ironsofcanada]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

The current discussion not important enough that we need to go back to debunked Project 2025 links?

People who want their political opinions taken seriously have a strange way of doing it.

[Mr Anon]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

https://www.project2025.observer/?sort=status-asc

[ironsofcanada]

For someone earlier preaching respect in a debate you're very quick to sling veiled insults 

I am sorry but actually they were not veiled at all.  

I did call you a sucker if you believe everything  Trump says.  Sometimes harsh language is needed I guess.

I see you and others as the inverse of true MAGA.  You believe everything Trump says, you just think it's all bad while they think it's all good. 

But again sorry, I will agree to dial it back and discuss specifics of what both Zelensky and Trump/Vance said, like I originally asked.

[Hammer I am]

For someone earlier preaching respect in a debate you're very quick to sling veiled insults 

[ironsofcanada]

 

"This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics,"

You really do yourself no favours with comments like this. Most of us believe it or not have some knowledge of the world and politics, you're not special in that regard.

Do you think that Zelensky should sign that deal with no US security guarantee, in good faith Putin will keep his word, yes or no?

You honestly prove that we all don't have an equal understanding of politics, with your last naive sentence.

[ironsofcanada]

The plan most likely to get him to sign away half his country's mineral wealth and let Putin have whatever he wants in return, toys were thrown out the pram when they were incredulous Zelensky wouldn't sign without protection as he "didn't hold any cards"

This is a man that wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine and turn into into a holiday resort, is he stupid enough to believe they would just up and leave willingly? you'd have to be a very special level if guillable to believe he'd do Ukrainian natives any favours at this point 

 

 

You make zero sense in reality.

The mineral wealth is not hoovered up in a second and you are done. You are putting American assets (and people) in the country to use it on an ongoing basis.  Do you honestly think that if Russia invades again in that scenario, American doesn't want to protect it's investment? That's your security. Always has been the deal and the argument.  As Secretary Bessent has said, "To show Russia, no daylight between Ukraine and the States." Zelensky ruined that at least temporarily. 

The surprise and reaction came when it felt like Zelensky was trying change or even scupper the deal live on TV.

If you think Palestine is happening, I will sell you my American (it will be annexed by then, of course) house for a real good price.  ie. You are a sucker, who apparently believes everything politicians say.

It's what Trump does, say big flashy things off his noggin, sometimes to get people like you to freak, while he works to get parts of the deal he actually wants. 

[Hammer I am]

Of course. There isn't a person alive who doesn't think Trump is a cսnt, that includes himself and all his supporters, etc. It's as black and white as anything there has ever been. Funny old game.

 

Unfortunately that is not true in the slightest. 
There are dyed-in-the-wool MAGA out there that love him as a person and believe he can do not wrong, of course.

Also unfortunately as well,  there are the inverse, those that believe he can do no right.

This also created unrealistic adulation of his opposition, which has it's own problems. Why would Harris be a serious candidate, when do you cover up Biden's decline as long as was done?

Look at Hammer I Am's post down the thread about Zelensky comparing him to Trump.
He thinks he's got " A little glimpse into the soul of each of them." because of PR stunts by both.
  
Now, rational adults know that in the real world, being a good person does not alway equal good results, and, realistically, the inverse is true.

I learned very early in my political awareness - first Bill Clinton era then actually working with politicians - that you can't have heroes of character in this business.  There are some trying to be good people but you ultimately have to vote and support people who you thing will to do the best thing for your town, council etc. up to the world, if you choose to look that far.


My comments on here come from the believe that the best, not perfect, action in this moment is the one Trump is pushing.  This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics, generally, but also from talking with an Ukrainian semi-refugee (she came for school before the last invasion but could not go back or see her parents for a long while) who is now married to my nephew. 

"This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics,"

You really do yourself no favours with comments like this. Most of us believe it or not have some knowledge of the world and politics, you're not special in that regard.

Do you think that Zelensky should sign that deal with no US security guarantee, in good faith Putin will keep his word, yes or no?