The Official Politics Thread (enter at your own risk)

[Come On You Irons]

There. Resident WHO political commentators and gurus can knock yourselves out in here and conduct your endless bickering. All other threads will be locked.

[Takashi Miike]

I just hope all the pro-war, keyboard field marshal, trump derangement cunts are prepared to fight for that pint sized money laundering scumbag, because that looks like the inevitable outcome if this continues

[Lee Trundle]

check my history.

I just did.

3 posts on football in almost 2 weeks.  The rest of your posting history is on this very thread.

Have a word with yourself.

[BillyJenningsBoots]

How many accounts on this thread lately are the drunk Polish nazi Pickle? 

I suspect 2.

You are the one with a new account check my history.

[BillyJenningsBoots]

BillyJenningsBoots

You can run from the question all you want.

Why would Russia agree to either of those?

I can magically make Russia agree to give me every ruble there is if I live in fantasy land.  Because in fantasy land I am the perfect negotatior, right?

Show a bit of bottle and give me a real world solution to this.  Spend more money, put boots on the ground etc. etc. I would disagree but I would respect it. 

If Trump had any bottle he'd support Ukraine and offer security guarantees in the agreement not based on a conversation Trump can say never happened. Hes not exactly famous for his truths. You think the real world solution is take the land and the minerals deal and offer no concrete security guarantees i.e. cave in totally to Putin!

Lets hope Europe do step up as Trump and his gang of commie loving pinkos have given up!

[THUNDERCLINT]

How many accounts on this thread lately are the drunk Polish nazi Pickle? 

I suspect 2.

[Nutsin]

*bang head on the table*

A signed guarantee is more words.  Literally on thin paper. What stops Trump ignoring them?  Who punishes him if he does? If we can't trust him.

Real need for a stable supply of minerals, real dollars to America and the risk of real America bodies on the news.  Those are guarantees that America wants the Ukraine stable and sovereign, under this deal. 

IOC, I can’t believe you are still debating these Herbert’s?  No matter what happens they will stay stuck on stupid. 

ooh, friend. news for you Nutsin, most people on your side of the debate are probably embarrassed you're in their camp

Just to be clear, In your case there is no “probably” 

[ironsofcanada]

BillyJenningsBoots

You can run from the question all you want.

Why would Russia agree to either of those?

I can magically make Russia agree to give me every ruble there is if I live in fantasy land.  Because in fantasy land I am the perfect negotatior, right?

Show a bit of bottle and give me a real world solution to this.  Spend more money, put boots on the ground etc. etc. I would disagree but I would respect it. 

[ironsofcanada]

 

Is this how you think in your personal affairs? "nah no need to sign a contract, what's the point, we can all just ignore it anyway right?"

you've given it the big one on how you have a head for politics, I'm not even sure you have a head on the basic mechanics of the world

 

 

No mate. My life and world affairs are different things. Pretty basic.

I have values that guide me. One of them is to support things that will stop people from dying.  Another means that if break an agreement with someone, the first consequence would be for me to feel awful about it. 


But you have made Trump this figure that cannot be trusted. He has the plan with Russia and will do anything he can to achieve that.  

Again, for the Trump you are basing your arguments on, what are the consquences of just guaranteeing security and then allowing Russia to ignore that? 

[BillyJenningsBoots]

What is wrong with the solution I already suggested. The reason I prefixed it with the "king of negotiating" was to head off any suggestion it wasnt possible. Anything is possibe so why not start from there. Trumps unfortunately laid all the cards on the table in public no wonder hes bankrupted... how many casinos?

Cowardly, honestly.

People are dying and you can't even muster an idea and resort to more about Trump.

I dunno what you are talking about. Whats cowardly about suggesting Russia either gives up the land they took since 2022 or allows NATO membership? Both sides compromise but we have peace?

Thats the starting point then you get both sides to negotiate!

Oh but youd rather they signed a pointless piece of paper instead brilliant! What next disappearing ink? The agreement spontaneously combusts! Trump had his fingers crossed behind his back all along... ffs!

[Hammer I am]

Words are paper thin IOC, you said you understand politics so you should know Trump stating "no one will mess with our people" means diddly squat unless he backs it up with some sort of signed guarantee 

*bang head on the table*

A signed guarantee is more words.  Literally on thin paper. What stops Trump ignoring them?  Who punishes him if he does? If we can't trust him.

Real need for a stable supply of minerals, real dollars to America and the risk of real America bodies on the news.  Those are guarantees that America wants the Ukraine stable and sovereign, under this deal. 

IOC, I can’t believe you are still debating these Herbert’s?  No matter what happens they will stay stuck on stupid. 

ooh, friend. news for you Nutsin, most people on your side of the debate are probably embarrassed you're in their camp

[Hammer I am]

Words are paper thin IOC, you said you understand politics so you should know Trump stating "no one will mess with our people" means diddly squat unless he backs it up with some sort of signed guarantee 

*bang head on the table*

A signed guarantee is more words.  Literally on thin paper. What stops Trump ignoring them?  Who punishes him if he does? If we can't trust him.

Real need for a stable supply of minerals, real dollars to America and the risk of real America bodies on the news.  Those are guarantees that America wants the Ukraine stable and sovereign, under this deal. 

 

 

Is this how you think in your personal affairs? "nah no need to sign a contract, what's the point, we can all just ignore it anyway right?"

you've given it the big one on how you have a head for politics, I'm not even sure you have a head on the basic mechanics of the world

[ironsofcanada]

 

fuck me, what's the point of any agreement around the world then? pack it all up boys, IOC says it's all pointless  

 

 

An agreement has weight when there are real  benefits and consequences to breaking it. The mineral agreement has benefit to the States and economic and political consequences if it is broken. 

If there is no mineral deal and Trump is as untrustworthy as you say he is, why not just sign the security guarantee for the plaudits and secretly tell Putin to attack when he wants.  What will be the consequences?

[Nutsin]

Words are paper thin IOC, you said you understand politics so you should know Trump stating "no one will mess with our people" means diddly squat unless he backs it up with some sort of signed guarantee 

*bang head on the table*

A signed guarantee is more words.  Literally on thin paper. What stops Trump ignoring them?  Who punishes him if he does? If we can't trust him.

Real need for a stable supply of minerals, real dollars to America and the risk of real America bodies on the news.  Those are guarantees that America wants the Ukraine stable and sovereign, under this deal. 

IOC, I can’t believe you are still debating these Herbert’s?  No matter what happens they will stay stuck on stupid. 

[Mr Anon]

Words are paper thin IOC, you said you understand politics so you should know Trump stating "no one will mess with our people" means diddly squat unless he backs it up with some sort of signed guarantee 

*bang head on the table*

A signed guarantee is more words.  Literally on thin paper. What stops Trump ignoring them?  Who punishes him if he does? If we can't trust him.

Real need for a stable supply of minerals, real dollars to America and the risk of real America bodies on the news.  Those are guarantees that America wants the Ukraine stable and sovereign, under this deal. 

 

 

fuck me, what's the point of any agreement around the world then? pack it all up boys, IOC says it's all pointless  

[ironsofcanada]

What is wrong with the solution I already suggested. The reason I prefixed it with the "king of negotiating" was to head off any suggestion it wasnt possible. Anything is possibe so why not start from there. Trumps unfortunately laid all the cards on the table in public no wonder hes bankrupted... how many casinos?

Cowardly, honestly.

People are dying and you can't even muster an idea and resort to more about Trump.

[BillyJenningsBoots]

So now you are saying there was definitely room for negotiating a security guarantee. So Ill ask again why did Trump say there was no room for it! 

The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating, is to convince Putin to either step away from all Ukraine borders as they were before 22 or let Ukraine join NATO. Putin they are your options now choose! He's happy to play hardball with Ukraine why not Russia? Neither of them have any "cards" left they are both punch drunk running out of troops and equipment and both economies ruined.

Russia started the war and if the land is so important then have it but give Ukraine security. At the end of the day they both have compromises Ukraine land for NATO membership!

But Im guessing Putin has already told Trump he wont allow NATO membership so that leaves security guarantees so thats what Zelensky has to go for!

Find me where he said "there was no room for" security guarantees.
He said the deal is an "automatic guarantee" - "Nobody’s going to be messing around with our people when we’re there."   (Blowing your loan-whatever malarky out of the water)

Does he want to commit to boots on the ground - of course not.  Political suicide.  And a road to escalation.


"The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating..."

What a weasel way of not giving an answer.  You know I don't think Trump is perfect. And Russia has a lot more cards than the Ukraine, it is honestly idiotic to suggest otherwise. 

Give me your solution, not some cowardly avoidance exercise in continued Trump-bashing.  Until you can do that, honestly whinging about Trump is just that. 

 

What is wrong with the solution I already suggested. The reason I prefixed it with the "king of negotiating" was to head off any suggestion it wasnt possible. Anything is possibe so why not start from there. Trumps unfortunately laid all the cards on the table in public no wonder hes bankrupted... how many casinos?

[ironsofcanada]

Words are paper thin IOC, you said you understand politics so you should know Trump stating "no one will mess with our people" means diddly squat unless he backs it up with some sort of signed guarantee 

*bang head on the table*

A signed guarantee is more words.  Literally on thin paper. What stops Trump ignoring them?  Who punishes him if he does? If we can't trust him.

Real need for a stable supply of minerals, real dollars to America and the risk of real America bodies on the news.  Those are guarantees that America wants the Ukraine stable and sovereign, under this deal. 

[Mr Anon]

So now you are saying there was definitely room for negotiating a security guarantee. So Ill ask again why did Trump say there was no room for it! 

The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating, is to convince Putin to either step away from all Ukraine borders as they were before 22 or let Ukraine join NATO. Putin they are your options now choose! He's happy to play hardball with Ukraine why not Russia? Neither of them have any "cards" left they are both punch drunk running out of troops and equipment and both economies ruined.

Russia started the war and if the land is so important then have it but give Ukraine security. At the end of the day they both have compromises Ukraine land for NATO membership!

But Im guessing Putin has already told Trump he wont allow NATO membership so that leaves security guarantees so thats what Zelensky has to go for!

Find me where he said "there was no room for" security guarantees.
He said the deal is an "automatic guarantee" - "Nobody’s going to be messing around with our people when we’re there."   (Blowing your loan-whatever malarky out of the water)

Does he want to commit to boots on the ground - of course not.  Political suicide.  And a road to escalation.


"The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating..."

What a weasel way of not giving an answer.  You know I don't think Trump is perfect. And Russia has a lot more cards than the Ukraine, it is honestly idiotic to suggest otherwise. 

Give me your solution, not some cowardly avoidance exercise in continued Trump-bashing.  Until you can do that, honestly whinging about Trump is just that. 

Words are paper thin IOC, you said you understand politics so you should know Trump stating "no one will mess with our people" means diddly squat unless he backs it up with some sort of signed guarantee 

[ironsofcanada]

Russia and Ukraine should do a Korea. 

The USA doesnt really win wars, it makes business for businesses.

Anyone who doesnt understand this is a child

Do a Korea in which way?  Divide things up where and how?  Or go to war and bring in a bunch of our kids to be killed and then divide it up?

How about a Vietnam?

[ironsofcanada]

So now you are saying there was definitely room for negotiating a security guarantee. So Ill ask again why did Trump say there was no room for it! 

The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating, is to convince Putin to either step away from all Ukraine borders as they were before 22 or let Ukraine join NATO. Putin they are your options now choose! He's happy to play hardball with Ukraine why not Russia? Neither of them have any "cards" left they are both punch drunk running out of troops and equipment and both economies ruined.

Russia started the war and if the land is so important then have it but give Ukraine security. At the end of the day they both have compromises Ukraine land for NATO membership!

But Im guessing Putin has already told Trump he wont allow NATO membership so that leaves security guarantees so thats what Zelensky has to go for!

Find me where he said "there was no room for" security guarantees.
He said the deal is an "automatic guarantee" - "Nobody’s going to be messing around with our people when we’re there."   (Blowing your loan-whatever malarky out of the water)

Does he want to commit to boots on the ground - of course not.  Political suicide.  And a road to escalation.


"The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating..."

What a weasel way of not giving an answer.  You know I don't think Trump is perfect. And Russia has a lot more cards than the Ukraine, it is honestly idiotic to suggest otherwise. 

Give me your solution, not some cowardly avoidance exercise in continued Trump-bashing.  Until you can do that, honestly whinging about Trump is just that. 

[ironsofcanada]

again, Zelensky went in the slim chance that US will ensure their protection in return for their £500 billion windfall, to his shock, and the wider world, are now realising now that Trump had no such intentions, I'm amazed someone with "political experience" such as yourself continues to misunderstand this.

I find it sickening Trump said to Zelensky you're risking world War 3, Trump is the one that's pushed that closer to reality by removing a deterrent that's kept that in check for decades. Lithuania and Bolivia are next, mark my words, Putin has been given the green light US won't get involved, and Europe isn't ready or equipped, What a way to thank your allies that followed into two wars in Iraq/Afghanistan.. Bunch of quisling fifth column schills some of you, and  you worst of all IOC as you have half a brain, shame.

 

 

Again, there is protection. I have, multiple times, explained the tangibles incentives that the States will have to keep the Ukraine sovereign, stable, and provided them minerals.  Again not to mention the political capital of peace and money from America. You keep ignoring that.

Most negative things said about Zelensky sicken you. You can see his soul, right?

"Putin has been given the green light that the US won't get involved"  ???????? Again they are intertwining themselves in the continue stability and economics of the country.  Something has get the minerals out of the ground, transport, etc. etc. 

Your name-calling not surprising but I will ask you too what is your solution that brings peace?

[BRANDED]

Russia and Ukraine should do a Korea. 

The USA doesnt really win wars, it makes business for businesses.

Anyone who doesnt understand this is a child

[BillyJenningsBoots]

Your interpretation is no more fact based than anyone else so stop pretending. We all saw what happened and both sides have blame attached but if there were to be further talks around security why did Trump tell Zelensky live on air that they were Europes problem. 

You and Trump both seem to initially say there were no security guarantees so why come to sign knowing that, but then say that was to be further discussed over lunch so clearly there was potential for a negotiated security agreement - which is it? My guess is you dont know just like the rest of us. I agree though Zelensky should have kept his powder dry for the off air meeting and so should Trump.

 

It's not my interpretation.  It is from multiple sources that were supposed to be at the lunch.

Again, the deal is a security guarantee, just not what Zelensky wanted, apparently. A demonstration that there is "no daylight" between the American and Ukrainian people. 

This lazy, "who knows?" is a cop out.
 
We know:

If he thought the deal could be salvaged, tweaked, clarified, whatever we call it, he knew that was what the lunch was for. He did not wait for that.

If he didn't want a deal, it was deceptive in coming.  His right to use any means, but that lead to...

If he wanted to relitigate in the press - he tried. He again has that right  but if he wanted the deal, he lost that negotiation. 

But the narrative of the ambush is looney tunes, frankly. 


What is your solution? For Zelensky on the night and for the Ukraine in general.  I am arguing for the deal - basically.  What is your alternative?

So now you are saying there was definitely room for negotiating a security guarantee. So Ill ask again why did Trump say there was no room for it! 

The solution, if as Trump says he is the king of negotiating, is to convince Putin to either step away from all Ukraine borders as they were before 22 or let Ukraine join NATO. Putin they are your options now choose! He's happy to play hardball with Ukraine why not Russia? Neither of them have any "cards" left they are both punch drunk running out of troops and equipment and both economies ruined.

Russia started the war and if the land is so important then have it but give Ukraine security. At the end of the day they both have compromises Ukraine land for NATO membership!

But Im guessing Putin has already told Trump he wont allow NATO membership so that leaves security guarantees so thats what Zelensky has to go for!

[Hammer I am]

Those are weasel words, as well you probably already know, they can be interpreted in any way they see fit, eg we meant the safety and prosperity of the geographical location, which by the way requires us to occupy it, there's nothing in there that ensures Ukraine's remaining territory as a sovereign nation 

I guess that's my point and this is where "Trump is all bad" fails you.

What is your solution?  Boots on the ground?

What words will satisfy you?

And if Trump can't be trusted, why should he abide by any of those words?  
Already a number of countries are not meeting their obligations to the NATO treaties, for instance.

Making things real in terms of minerals in US hands, money in it's coffer and a real political win - tough guy image - "people don't start wars when I'm in charge" is better security than words in a treaty, especially if you can't trust Trump in anything.  Who is going to punish him if he reneges on any deal?  What stops him from breaking a mineral deal? It takes boots on the ground and a massive political loss to take them by force.

And again I guess, if this deal is not good enough in Zelensky's eyes, why did he come to the White House press conference?  He has plenty of chance to negotiate before Friday.

 

 

again, Zelensky went in the slim chance that US will ensure their protection in return for their £500 billion windfall, to his shock, and the wider world, are now realising now that Trump had no such intentions, I'm amazed someone with "political experience" such as yourself continues to misunderstand this.

I find it sickening Trump said to Zelensky you're risking world War 3, Trump is the one that's pushed that closer to reality by removing a deterrent that's kept that in check for decades. Lithuania and Bolivia are next, mark my words, Putin has been given the green light US won't get involved, and Europe isn't ready or equipped, What a way to thank your allies that followed into two wars in Iraq/Afghanistan.. Bunch of quisling fifth column schills some of you, and  you worst of all IOC as you have half a brain, shame.

[ironsofcanada]

Your interpretation is no more fact based than anyone else so stop pretending. We all saw what happened and both sides have blame attached but if there were to be further talks around security why did Trump tell Zelensky live on air that they were Europes problem. 

You and Trump both seem to initially say there were no security guarantees so why come to sign knowing that, but then say that was to be further discussed over lunch so clearly there was potential for a negotiated security agreement - which is it? My guess is you dont know just like the rest of us. I agree though Zelensky should have kept his powder dry for the off air meeting and so should Trump.

 

 

It's not my interpretation.  It is from multiple sources that were supposed to be at the lunch.

Again, the deal is a security guarantee, just not what Zelensky wanted, apparently. A demonstration that there is "no daylight" between the American and Ukrainian people. 

This lazy, "who knows?" is a cop out.
 
We know:

If he thought the deal could be salvaged, tweaked, clarified, whatever we call it, he knew that was what the lunch was for. He did not wait for that.

If he didn't want a deal, it was deceptive in coming.  His right to use any means, but that lead to...

If he wanted to relitigate in the press - he tried. He again has that right  but if he wanted the deal, he lost that negotiation. 

But the narrative of the ambush is looney tunes, frankly. 


What is your solution? For Zelensky on the night and for the Ukraine in general.  I am arguing for the deal - basically.  What is your alternative?