Progress Under Potter. ?

[Cerveza Para Mi]

Pub conversation with one or two people on Sunday and the conversation came roun d to West Ham. It got me thinking about whether we've made any progress under Potter and, tbh, I reckon our away performances have improved but the results haven't, if that makes sense.  We've played 7 away games under Potter and only won one of them. Albeit against 1 of the best 2 teams we've played away since he arrived. We've drawn 2 and lost 4, with 6 scored and 9 conceded.  Performance wise imo apart from the Wolves game, where I thought we were crap, I don't think we've played too badly in the others. We were also, again only imo, unlucky to lose at Villa in the cup match, Chelsea at the Bridge and arguably deserved a point at Anfield.

But at home under Potter we've been bloody awful.  We've won 2 games from the 7 played. A win against Fulham which, based on performance alkone I don't think we deserved to, and a dull , easy victory against Leicester.  There were a frew decent moments against Bournemouth, imo the only home game under Potter where the football, has been remotely enjoyable, but the rest of the games have been pretty damn awful. Two wins from 7 games against teams, Newcastle excluded, who we wouldn't consider top bracket, two draws and 3 defeats. 8 goals score (3 in oine match) and 9 conceded.  And imo not one performance that could be considered a good one.

That, for me, is a pretty damning statistic.  Potter's high point so far has been the victory at The Emirates but for me our best performance of the season came at Newcastle under Lopetegui.  Also the only home game which I felt was enjoyable to watch was the 4-1 win against Ipswich. Of course I enjoyed the win against Manchester United but, let's be honest, they should have been out of sight by half time.

So have we made progress ?  Not imo. In fact , hard as it might be to believe, I think we've actually gone backwards.  Cards on the tabe because I know there's been a lot of discussion about whether performance or results are the most important, I'm someone who puts results top of the pile. Give me a shithoused 1-0 win over a swashbuckling 3-3 draw any day of the week. I want my team to entertain, of course I do, but above all I want them to WIN.  So looking at the hard facts 3 of our 5 home wins (in itself pretty pathetic isn't it?) have come under Lopetegui. And he also presided over 3 of our 4 away victories, although credit to Potter his sole away win was at Arsenal.

Progress ?  Not inb my book I'm afraid.

[Sir Alf]

Spot on Stubbo.

At their job interview, did Sullivan, our football illiterate owner, make it clear to both Looetegui and Potter that the priority had to be implementation of a far more entertaining style?  Ignoring the bloody obvious, which is that the squad was and is still not suited to a controlled possession tactic which requires pace, physicality, athleticism.  Sullivan’s mindset of a spiv being “I’ve spent 150 million on players so that must mean we just start playing, entertaining, first class football in a first class stadium, roll up, roll up, start renewing”.  

We are still at least 2 very good transfer windows away from playing a possession based game well and the odds of us having those almost perfect wondows ate slim. Firstly, have to identify the right profile players ( young, strong, athletic, good technically ) and secondly rely on DOF Sullivan to secure / negotiate deals.  Aint gonna happen.

Potter gone by Xmas is my prediction simply because, even if he got some of the targets, he’s a slow builder and our fans expectations and patience wont last that long and arguably we are already feeling we’ve waited too long. Understandable
mind after 150 million spent, the expectation of Steidten as DOF ( he wasnt anything like a proper DOF courtesy of Sullivan and just another fall guy).  

Groundhog day this time next year with some other 60-70 year old manager has been. 

 

[Rossal]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

 

 

Is our squad set up to counter attack though?  We have Kudus and Bowen that are good ball carriers and bit of pace.....apart from that what else is there?

Our midfield is slow and not technical with no goal threat or creativity. We have no number 9 to run in behind or to get up the pitch and finish chances. Our full backs are dreadful going forward and never ever get to bylines. 

So are we set up to counter attack? 

I'd argue our coaches have no quality this season. The team are capable of playing forward, the team are capable of running in behind to stretch teams, the team are capable of pressing better, the team are capable of using our full backs to attack. 

why hasnt either coach recognised this or attempted to implement it? 

Just can't wait for season to end. 

[Manuel]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

Spot on, Stubbo. Good analysis, that.

 

 

He is right in what he says but in reality it's a naïve view really. Coaches at this level all have their own way of playing regardless of the players they have at their disposals. They may recognise what we're good at but will not sway from their beliefs because that is the way they think a side should play and if they go away from that then they will be troubled that they don't really believe in what they are doing and that they won't get the best out of themselves. Happens at other clubs too, Amorin at Man Utd being one.

[southbankbornnbred]

I’d only add that Potter’s claim to have improved us by sorting out the defence is the “easy” bit.

Compared to the hard yards of improving our midfield and attack, it’s relatively “easy” to shore up your defence by plugging another defender into the mix and often going 5-4-1.

Potter has invested a lot of his emotional capital in that move so far.

I’m not necessarily saying it was the wrong thing to do. But it has consequences - we’re utter shite going forward. The hard work now is improving midfield and attack while locking in those defensive improvements.

And that’s where I have my doubts about Potter. He has failed to do that everywhere he’s been in England. But let’s see.

[southbankbornnbred]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

Spot on, Stubbo. Good analysis, that.

[stubbo]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

[Massive Attack]

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

Not much different to what the previous manager had to also put up with as new main Striker signing Fullkrug was out for 10 matches from the start of the season, then Antonio being involved in his car crash. Potter at least was given the chance to work with Ferguson but prefers to often overlook him on the bench where the predecessor didn’t have that luxury at all. And in fact didn't have Bowen for his last match in charge having picked up his injury by half time against Liverpool.

He signed Fullkrug

Sorry, who signed him?

[Maverick180180]

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

Not much different to what the previous manager had to also put up with as new main Striker signing Fullkrug was out for 10 matches from the start of the season, then Antonio being involved in his car crash. Potter at least was given the chance to work with Ferguson but prefers to often overlook him on the bench where the predecessor didn’t have that luxury at all. And in fact didn't have Bowen for his last match in charge having picked up his injury by half time against Liverpool.

He signed Fullkrug, he had Bowen and Antonio pretty much up until his sacking, that's a big difference 

Yeah Antonio with his 1 goal from 11 starts has been a huge miss 
I find it fantastic how Antonio suddenly turns into Lionel Messi when he’s out injured but when playing no one rates him 

[Massive Attack]

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

Bowen only missed 4 of Potter's games

And 3 of those being in the League. And in the last 4 games he's been spoilt for choice of Forwards to select from in Bowen, Fullkrug, Ferguson, Kudus (bar the Wolves game) managing 4 goals as a Team and 1 of them was an Own Goal!

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

Bowen only missed 4 of Potter's games, and we scored 5 goals in them games, which is a higher average than we've had since he's been back from injury. Obviously I'm not saying that we're better without Bowen, but we're scoring less and less the longer Potter is here. 5 goals in the last 6 games, and that's included matches against mediocre teams like Southampton, Everton, Wolves and Bournemouth.

At some point people are going to have to realise that it's not all about WHO is playing, but HOW the manager gets them to play, and Potter has a history of not being able to get his teams to score much.

[Council Scum]

West Ham average fewer points-per-game (1.00) in the Premier League under Graham Potter than they did under Julen Lopetegui (1.15) and three positions lower in the table. Potter also averages 1 goal per game in charge as before it was 24 goals after 20 League matches. #Progress

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

Not much different to what the previous manager had to also put up with as new main Striker signing Fullkrug was out for 10 matches from the start of the season, then Antonio being involved in his car crash. Potter at least was given the chance to work with Ferguson but prefers to often overlook him on the bench where the predecessor didn’t have that luxury at all. And in fact didn't have Bowen for his last match in charge having picked up his injury by half time against Liverpool.

He signed Fullkrug, he had Bowen and Antonio pretty much up until his sacking, that's a big difference 

[Massive Attack]

West Ham average fewer points-per-game (1.00) in the Premier League under Graham Potter than they did under Julen Lopetegui (1.15) and three positions lower in the table. Potter also averages 1 goal per game in charge as before it was 24 goals after 20 League matches. #Progress

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

Not much different to what the previous manager had to also put up with as new main Striker signing Fullkrug was out for 10 matches from the start of the season, then Antonio being involved in his car crash. Potter at least was given the chance to work with Ferguson but prefers to often overlook him on the bench where the predecessor didn’t have that luxury at all. And in fact didn't have Bowen for his last match in charge having picked up his injury by half time against Liverpool.

[Council Scum]

West Ham average fewer points-per-game (1.00) in the Premier League under Graham Potter than they did under Julen Lopetegui (1.15) and three positions lower in the table. Potter also averages 1 goal per game in charge as before it was 24 goals after 20 League matches. #Progress

So Antonio being out and Bowen breaking his foot, shortly before he took over, may have had a big impact on that. 

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

Jaan, you can't expect to finish in the top half of the table if you don't value scoring goals. His main priority every fucking game is stopping the opposition, he's more negative than Moyes. It's joyless football. Our three best players (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta) stink the place out every week, yet people keep saying "He deserves a window". In four months all he's shown is he deserves the fucking sack

 

 

Yeah it is joyless football.   Unfortunately the reality is we could go all out attack but we'd likely let in 3 or 4 regularly and not score many more than we are. The squad has problems in every department.

It was his fault for trying to defend 3 points against Southampton 100%. The Moyes comparison is fair to a degree. I wouldn't miss him if he is to be sacked. My point is he might not look the solution but he isn't the problem. Unlike Lopetegui that completely devastated the club with shit like Kilman on a seven year contract.

[onsideman]

Without our long term offensive injured I would suggest we have the 4th worst squad in the division.  And so it has proved. The difference between Lopetegui and Potter is that the former scouted the players he wanted and the latter has had to work with what he was given... but with more and very significant injuries

[Takashi Miike]

Jaan, you can't expect to finish in the top half of the table if you don't value scoring goals. His main priority every fucking game is stopping the opposition, he's more negative than Moyes. It's joyless football. Our three best players (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta) stink the place out every week, yet people keep saying "He deserves a window". In four months all he's shown is he deserves the fucking sack

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

Both have been piss poor in a god awful season of almost zero highlights.  The only difference between the two is Lopetegui spent 150m on the squad, which  needs an even bigger overhaul or we will suffer similar next season, whoever is in charge.

In some respects the only thing worse than appointing that spanish moron was sacking him mid season with no money to spend. Had we held on to him and rode out the season we could have let him go and start fresh again in the summer, but instead we dragged the replacement in to a mess that can't be solved tactically.

I'm not sure Potter's ability in the transfer market is good enough to see us being able to regain any challenge for Europe, so I think Potter's best chance of progress here is establishing some more of the youth players next season and at least that way looking like we are building again.

[Massive Attack]

West Ham average fewer points-per-game (1.00) in the Premier League under Graham Potter than they did under Julen Lopetegui (1.15) and three positions lower in the table. Potter also averages 1 goal per game in charge as before it was 24 goals after 20 League matches. #Progress

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

We were 7 points above the relegation zone with -15 goal difference after the 20 matches under Lopetegui. We are now 15 points above relegation with - 18 goal difference.

Not progress having dropped a few places but it’s better than I think Lopetegui would have continued with, who was becoming more and more exposed defensively.

Didn’t really want Potter, or had great expectations of him when coming in, especially with no money to spend.

He hasn’t done much to make me look forward to next season and I won’t have any problem if he gets replaced with someone better,  but he hasn’t done anything badly enough to not deserve a chance with a summer window either. 


 

[onsideman]

Significantly? Not a chance. On about a par with our Squad, yes and both Squads that midtable is about their normal level. 

I should have added "in my opinion" because ultimately that's all we have, right?

My personal view is that the majority of people (fans and those outside the club) underestimate just how bad our squad is. It was shit last year and remarkably got worse this season due to a combination of the most extraordinarily bad recruitment and the poor form of some of our (previously) best players and the absolutely rank bad form of a couple in particular 

[honky cat]

I wonder what it would actually take to sack Potter in October.

 

 

 

FFS. what if we do some good business in the summer and are playing ok by then
​​​​

[Massive Attack]

Significantly? Not a chance. On about a par with our Squad, yes and both Squads that midtable is about their normal level. 

[onsideman]

Vitor Periera showed what can actually be achieved from a far worse desperate situation than what Potter inherited around a similar time of taking over Wolves lying in 19th spot on just 9 points in the League. Ait Nouri had got himself sent off at Home to a loss to Ipswich and their best player Cunha went on a 1 man rampage end of that game where he even assaults a tubby Ipswich Security fella by slapping off his glasses broken in two receiving a ban himself.

That dressing room was at rock bottom staring relegation square in the face just as he took them over and yet he managed to inspire an almost hopeless case to around where we were when Potter took us over in the League, leapfrogging us in the process. And he's also done it in style playing some very entertaining football that's fearless and in attacking style. Not the turgid gutless wank we've had to endure with much less pressure. He even got Wolves in a desperate position to the 5th Round of the FA Cup only to narrowly lose out Away to Bournemouth on Penalties. 

Significantly better squad though

[Massive Attack]

Vitor Periera showed what can actually be achieved from a far worse desperate situation than what Potter inherited around a similar time of taking over Wolves lying in 19th spot on just 9 points in the League. Ait Nouri had got himself sent off at Home to a loss to Ipswich and their best player Cunha went on a 1 man rampage end of that game where he even assaults a tubby Ipswich Security fella by slapping off his glasses broken in two receiving a ban himself.

That dressing room was at rock bottom staring relegation square in the face just as he took them over and yet he managed to inspire an almost hopeless case to around where we were when Potter took us over in the League, leapfrogging us in the process. And he's also done it in style playing some very entertaining football that's fearless and in attacking style. Not the turgid gutless wank we've had to endure with much less pressure. He even got Wolves in a desperate position to the 5th Round of the FA Cup only to narrowly lose out Away to Bournemouth on Penalties. 

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

I wonder what it would actually take to sack Potter in October.

Seeing as we were 13th in January and nowhere near relegation when Lopetegui got the push, he's clearly been the harshest treated. Bilic was given the heave-ho in November, when we were 17th. Pellegrini got the boot in December, when we were 17th.

No-one else has been sacked mid-season by Sullivan. Two years ago Moyes had us in 18th in January and February. In 2013/14 Allardyce had us 19th in December and not out of the bottom 3 until February.

Perhaps he gives more chances to British managers who have more experience of the league, in which case Potter might see out the rest of next season despite poor results.