Progress Under Potter. ?

[Cerveza Para Mi]

Pub conversation with one or two people on Sunday and the conversation came roun d to West Ham. It got me thinking about whether we've made any progress under Potter and, tbh, I reckon our away performances have improved but the results haven't, if that makes sense.  We've played 7 away games under Potter and only won one of them. Albeit against 1 of the best 2 teams we've played away since he arrived. We've drawn 2 and lost 4, with 6 scored and 9 conceded.  Performance wise imo apart from the Wolves game, where I thought we were crap, I don't think we've played too badly in the others. We were also, again only imo, unlucky to lose at Villa in the cup match, Chelsea at the Bridge and arguably deserved a point at Anfield.

But at home under Potter we've been bloody awful.  We've won 2 games from the 7 played. A win against Fulham which, based on performance alkone I don't think we deserved to, and a dull , easy victory against Leicester.  There were a frew decent moments against Bournemouth, imo the only home game under Potter where the football, has been remotely enjoyable, but the rest of the games have been pretty damn awful. Two wins from 7 games against teams, Newcastle excluded, who we wouldn't consider top bracket, two draws and 3 defeats. 8 goals score (3 in oine match) and 9 conceded.  And imo not one performance that could be considered a good one.

That, for me, is a pretty damning statistic.  Potter's high point so far has been the victory at The Emirates but for me our best performance of the season came at Newcastle under Lopetegui.  Also the only home game which I felt was enjoyable to watch was the 4-1 win against Ipswich. Of course I enjoyed the win against Manchester United but, let's be honest, they should have been out of sight by half time.

So have we made progress ?  Not imo. In fact , hard as it might be to believe, I think we've actually gone backwards.  Cards on the tabe because I know there's been a lot of discussion about whether performance or results are the most important, I'm someone who puts results top of the pile. Give me a shithoused 1-0 win over a swashbuckling 3-3 draw any day of the week. I want my team to entertain, of course I do, but above all I want them to WIN.  So looking at the hard facts 3 of our 5 home wins (in itself pretty pathetic isn't it?) have come under Lopetegui. And he also presided over 3 of our 4 away victories, although credit to Potter his sole away win was at Arsenal.

Progress ?  Not inb my book I'm afraid.

[Sydney_Iron]

I find all those West Ham YouTube channels hard to watch, its either spam or the same old regurgitated shit but from a different angle, used to like Gonzo and Geo at Hammers chat but it's very rarely useful or a good insight to what going on, just their opinion which is fair enough i suppose, bit like WHO really, we all got an opinion or reason we think we are shit, but it's probably just bollocks (including my own) way off the mark with what's going on and why we can't seem to progress not just under Potter but pretty much every manager we have had in the PL era.

 

[Manuel]

Does anyone listen to Gary on the Bobby Moore stand YT channel? He is massively pro Potter and was even giving him credit yesterday for keeping us up and said we would have gone down under Lop even though we were 13th when he left. The fella is an absolute fucking moron.

[Sydney_Iron]

Not sure we will see progress under Potter or any other manager for that matter, think our problems run much deeper than the manager, the owners and board like to think we are an elite top London club but there is no comparison really, just on the stadium, both Spurs and Arsenal recognised they needed to upgrade and as much as i don't like either there board and owners delivered state of the art football stadiums, then Chelsea are about to embark on something similar, what did we get? A left over and now rented athletics stadium that we kept getting told is a "state of the art" arena, which it may be, it's just that it wasn't built with football in mind!  Spurs may have put in a bid/shown interest to get the left-over Olympic stadium, but their plan was to bulldoze it and build a stadium for football,

TBH i wouldn't be surprised if it's a culture thing with West Ham with the current regime as well? im sure players come to West Ham and enjoy the experience, get well paid and it's all a bit of a laugh at times, seems to be good spirit and comradery which is all very well but not all or most of the time or in the wrong places, just watch some of the training ground or videos put out by the club and it's all smiles and piss taking each other by the looks of things, watch an Arsenal version for example and its more on focus, improvement and getting into a winning mentality for games.

Hope im wrong and it Champions league here we come under Potter, but i think thats just a pipe dream

[Mike Oxsaw]

The Football Show on Radio 5 were discussing Potter last night and though the jury was still out they talked about how West Ham MUST build a stadium that they can call home.

No identity on the pitch, no identity off it.

Even if every single budding UK athlete were to say, in unison: "I take one look at that stadium and I can't be arsed with it all any more," the stadium staying would take priority over future UK Olympic success because of it being "a nation's legacy" (and, naturally, who was involved in it's design).

And for very similar reasons, the stadium will never (NEVER) be sold to West Ham/Sullivan because that would be tantamount to the Civil Service admitting that they got it wrong - and that never happens without strong and embarrassing public pressure (I give you The Post Office/Horizon debacle as proof of that).

Not a hint of any potential purchasers beating each other off with shitty sticks in a race to buy it, either.

[Manuel]

Potter may not be the managerial answer but its futile and largely a waste of time and breathe. Sullivan is the problem. Getting a new manager will not make a difference. But we cannot get Sullivan out so we naturally focus on the symptoms of his ownership ( managers and players although many were the wrong profile in our chaotic recruitment approach). 15 years of Sullivan and back to where we have been for 12 years of those 15 which  is relegation candidates. 

Sullivan should be the target.

It's quite something that we don't have a "Sullivan out" thread

He doesn't come on here so no need to worry.

[Alfs]

The Football Show on Radio 5 were discussing Potter last night and though the jury was still out they talked about how West Ham MUST build a stadium that they can call home.

No identity on the pitch, no identity off it.

[wils]

Potter may not be the managerial answer but its futile and largely a waste of time and breathe. Sullivan is the problem. Getting a new manager will not make a difference. But we cannot get Sullivan out so we naturally focus on the symptoms of his ownership ( managers and players although many were the wrong profile in our chaotic recruitment approach). 15 years of Sullivan and back to where we have been for 12 years of those 15 which  is relegation candidates. 

Sullivan should be the target.

It's quite something that we don't have a "Sullivan out" thread

[Sir Alf]

Potter may not be the managerial answer but its futile and largely a waste of time and breathe. Sullivan is the problem. Getting a new manager will not make a difference. But we cannot get Sullivan out so we naturally focus on the symptoms of his ownership ( managers and players although many were the wrong profile in our chaotic recruitment approach). 15 years of Sullivan and back to where we have been for 12 years of those 15 which  is relegation candidates. 

Sullivan should be the target.

[Massive Attack]

It's possession but with no purpose. Crab Football I think they're correctly labelling it.

It feels like the Club are obsessing too much on bringing in a Coach who brings possession football but missing the point that we want it when it leads to something exciting to watch. Possession just for the sake of it going nowhere fast can be just as boring and monotonous as defending for your lives all the time. 

Bilic, Redknapp and Pardew (1st season back) were the closest of any Premier League managers we've had that came close to producing the entertaining, attacking Football we want to see without it being obsessed about possession. And we tend to Coach all the freedom out of maverick types where their talent get neutered for fear of giving away the ball higher up the pitch (Paqueta when he sometimes dicks around on the edge of our own box is just braindead).

[Tomshardware]

I think for a lot of us the worst thing about Moyes was how the mentality was so passive when not in possession. Weirdly Potter manages to make us just as passive when we actually have the ball. Don't know why anyone would think that's a good thing.

While I understand the criticism that Potter is getting, at least he has got us able to keep possession, under Moyes players seemed like they couldn't get rid of it quick enough.  

[Massive Attack]

It was 3 things with how we played under Moyes that was so depressing to watch for me.

1. Heavily set up to defend, regardless of how shit the opposition were or how many exciting attacking player's we had at our disposal

2. Allergic to the ball so a passing possession game of any sort was virtually non-existent. Unless it was counter attack Football waiting to be gifted back possession, he weren't interested in developing it

3. The cowards approach to just make sure we did enough rather than actually try and batter teams that were there for the taking

Because of all that is why so many had enough, especially when he was backed in the market to improve all those aspects of our game to entertain.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

I think for a lot of us the worst thing about Moyes was how the mentality was so passive when not in possession. Weirdly Potter manages to make us just as passive when we actually have the ball. Don't know why anyone would think that's a good thing.

[Eerie Decent]

I think more than formations, tactics and players, the most important thing for me is mentality. It's why the last 2 years of Moyes drove me absolutely crackers.

I've not got a problem setting up away from home to be solid, or even against certain teams at home.

However, when you're going into games at home against anyone other than the elite you need to try to be imposing yourselves and try to win the game. No excuses, or else how are you ever going to compete in this league of you don't try to beat teams at home?

The game that tipped me over the edge with Potter was Newcastle at home. They're not in the greatest form, they have a cup final at the weekend which brings caution to their players, night game at home under the lights, and we did not lay a fucking glove on them. Not a fucking glove, don't think we had a player booked.

Sometimes, in certain situations like above, tactics and formations go out of the window. See what they are made of, stick it on them. Instead, we tried to draw 0-0 from the outset.

I can't get behind that. Fuck what he is inherited, that sort of bollocks is unforgivable. This fella hasn't got the bollocks for a club like ours.

[Rossal]

Watching some sides (not just us) try to play PepBall when they’ve got a goalkeeper with a melon for a right foot, and a centre half who last completed a pass over the park in 2010, is hilarious at times.

Watching them fixate on doing it time and again, despite glorious failure, is even funnier. Unless it’s us.

That was Burnley last season, lost count the amount of times their keepers and back 4 lost the ball within 20 yards of goal and let one in.  Kompany was stubborn refused to change, they went back to the champ and he errrr landed the Bayern Munich job......make it make sense! 

[southbankbornnbred]

Watching some sides (not just us) try to play PepBall when they’ve got a goalkeeper with a melon for a right foot, and a centre half who last completed a pass over the park in 2010, is hilarious at times.

Watching them fixate on doing it time and again, despite glorious failure, is even funnier. Unless it’s us.

[southbankbornnbred]

Fair point, Manuel. There are loads of managers who can’t really adapt beyond their preferred system.

Especially the “younger” mob wedded to shite versions of PepBall.

It's not Pepball. While Pepball has a central ethos of maintaining possession in the opponents half through continued recycling to create moments of opportunity it's not anchored to any preferred system or type of player. He'll switch between a back 3 or 4, direct vs creative wingers, etc

Certain postions are key, the passing goalkeeper (Ederson) and the defensive playmaker (Rodri) much of it is quite fluid. Haaland and Messi couldn't be further apart as central strikers but he gets it to work.

The system is not rigid and he doesn't need "his" type of players.

The fact thart the Pottercunt needs the exact type of players to fit his system is a sign that basically he can't coach what he actually does is preach. Pepball and crabball ar opposite end of the spectrum, to borrow terms from Edward de Bono Pep is water logic while the Pottercunt is rock logic.

Sorry, TC, I wasn’t necessarily referring to Potter when talking about shite versions of PepBall. There are loads of managers implementing inferior versions of Pep’s approach.

I’m really not sure what I’d call what we’ve seen from Potter so far - although CrabBall is a good description. For instance, I’ve no idea if he intends to go five at the back regularly in future, which is how he’s made us defensively less shite. Or is that largely an interim measure?

He’ll say “you’ve got to have different looks and formations”. Which sounds great, and everybody needs some flexibility. But I still think you’ve got to lean towards a particular approach, otherwise you end up with what we have now: players unsuited to systems on the day.

Look at Liverpool and Arsenal this season: they’ve mostly kept the same team structure/formation. It’s this fixation with Flexi PepBall, done badly and without elite-level player budgets, that’s leading many sides to become crap halfway houses.

[Rossal]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

 

Is our squad set up to counter attack though?  We have Kudus and Bowen that are good ball carriers and bit of pace.....apart from that what else is there?

Our midfield is slow and not technical with no goal threat or creativity. We have no number 9 to run in behind or to get up the pitch and finish chances. Our full backs are dreadful going forward and never ever get to bylines. 

So are we set up to counter attack? 

I'd argue our coaches have no quality this season. The team are capable of playing forward, the team are capable of running in behind to stretch teams, the team are capable of pressing better, the team are capable of using our full backs to attack. 

why hasnt either coach recognised this or attempted to implement it? 

Just can't wait for season to end. 

Look at the goal we scored against Southampton.  It was our classic goal.  Paqueta gets it from deep, sets us away down the left...ball carried up field at pace, and the played across to Bowen on the other side cutting in to score.  Absolute classic counter attack goal.  All you need is a midfield setup to stifle, a guy like Paqueta that can play that pass, a ball carrier, and a finisher.

Our squad is well set for that.

Its against the worst team ever mate. To stifle a midfield needs legs.  Paqueta 'can play that pass' but has 0 assists this season.  Our best ball carrier Kudus has been shit and we've spent most the year with no striker. 

I've been slating Potter as much as the next guy but maybe I am talking myself into believing the squad is shit no matter who is in charge 

[THUNDERCLINT]

Fair point, Manuel. There are loads of managers who can’t really adapt beyond their preferred system.

Especially the “younger” mob wedded to shite versions of PepBall.

It's not Pepball. While Pepball has a central ethos of maintaining possession in the opponents half through continued recycling to create moments of opportunity it's not anchored to any preferred system or type of player. He'll switch between a back 3 or 4, direct vs creative wingers, etc

Certain postions are key, the passing goalkeeper (Ederson) and the defensive playmaker (Rodri) much of it is quite fluid. Haaland and Messi couldn't be further apart as central strikers but he gets it to work.

The system is not rigid and he doesn't need "his" type of players.

The fact thart the Pottercunt needs the exact type of players to fit his system is a sign that basically he can't coach what he actually does is preach. Pepball and crabball ar opposite end of the spectrum, to borrow terms from Edward de Bono Pep is water logic while the Pottercunt is rock logic.

[southbankbornnbred]

Fair point, Manuel. There are loads of managers who can’t really adapt beyond their preferred system.

Especially the “younger” mob wedded to shite versions of PepBall.

[stubbo]

 

He is right in what he says but in reality it's a naïve view really. Coaches at this level all have their own way of playing regardless of the players they have at their disposals. They may recognise what we're good at but will not sway from their beliefs because that is the way they think a side should play and if they go away from that then they will be troubled that they don't really believe in what they are doing and that they won't get the best out of themselves. Happens at other clubs too, Amorin at Man Utd being one.

Totally agree Manuel.  The issue is in the hiring of a manager that isn't suited to the squad of players at his disposal.

It's where a DoF comes in as opposed to some troll spiv like Sullivan he clearly doesn't 'get it'.  Just another of the failings to lay at his door.

Stubbo, to be fair I picked it up from something big Ange said a few months ago when asked by a hack something like would you be tempted to set up differently to try and improve results, he said he can't do it because if he moves away from what he believes in he won't be able to go into it with full belief etc, and what if it doesn't work anyway.

As for your point about hiring a coach whose methods fit the squad he'll be inheriting, yes ideally but then I suppose your list of candidates is going to be a lot shorter.

...and probably not kicking their heels out of a job!

[threesixty]

I have a hard time believing that any player that makes it to PL level cannot play possession based football. Every single player in our squad is technically gifted and capable of doing all the skills required to play quality football. 

the issue is coaching and management. More often it simply is mentality as fullkrug has suggested. Are you too scared to play the ball out when you’re 1-0 up? Do you make the basic pass or try to dribble through 5 players? Also are you fit enough? If you’re not blessed with pace is your positioning good?

young players need experience to get used to intuitively making the right decisions. But pro’s with plenty of minutes on the pitch should be able to carry out any instructions. 

yes there are the odd “world class” player but most teams that do well don’t have more than 1 or 2 of them. All there other squad players are just players who worked hard and applied good mentality with a good coach. 

so I refuse to believe our pricadement has anything to do with the squad. That’s not a bunch of footballers that need an overhaul. Even Potter has admitted it himself (at the same time unwittingly accepting he can’t coach this team very well at the moment). 

the only thing I think is hard to find is actual accurate and consistent goal scorers. But I think it’s best to coach a system that creates goal scoring opportunities rather than relying on some magical Players. And I think this where Potter has a big issue. yes he’s sured up defence but at the expense of creating clear cut chances.

He needs to gamble with overloading players in midfield and forward positions. He seems only to want to do that when he’s losing. If anything the mentality problem with the team is actually Potters mentality that needs solving. 

im very sceptical that our transfer window will solve the mentality that Potter has. That’s the gamble. I think he may have regressed since Brighton because he’s over cautious. And his bad time in management has just exacerbated his over cautiousness.
 

[dealcanvey]

I thought Downes at the weekend looked quicker, stronger and more robust than any of our midfield 3. Playing with a point to prove he looked like he had improved since we sold him. Not saying that it was the wrong decision to sell Downes but it did show how poor our CM position is currently.

Potter has inherited an old/slow/unbalanced squad. Time and time again we invest incorrectly spending big sums on players that either dont fit or, are in the twilight of their careers. I dont see Potter getting the chop even if we lose our remaining fixtures. Let's see if his approach in the summer is different to what we have seen in previous transfer windows under several managers. If the approach is different and we look to youth and talented players from say the Championship, we may actually end up having a squad of players that will play for their manager. 

 

[Manuel]

Spot on, Stubbo. Good analysis, that.

 

He is right in what he says but in reality it's a naïve view really. Coaches at this level all have their own way of playing regardless of the players they have at their disposals. They may recognise what we're good at but will not sway from their beliefs because that is the way they think a side should play and if they go away from that then they will be troubled that they don't really believe in what they are doing and that they won't get the best out of themselves. Happens at other clubs too, Amorin at Man Utd being one.

Totally agree Manuel.  The issue is in the hiring of a manager that isn't suited to the squad of players at his disposal.

It's where a DoF comes in as opposed to some troll spiv like Sullivan he clearly doesn't 'get it'.  Just another of the failings to lay at his door.

Stubbo, to be fair I picked it up from something big Ange said a few months ago when asked by a hack something like would you be tempted to set up differently to try and improve results, he said he can't do it because if he moves away from what he believes in he won't be able to go into it with full belief etc, and what if it doesn't work anyway.

As for your point about hiring a coach whose methods fit the squad he'll be inheriting, yes ideally but then I suppose your list of candidates is going to be a lot shorter.

[stubbo]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

 

Is our squad set up to counter attack though?  We have Kudus and Bowen that are good ball carriers and bit of pace.....apart from that what else is there?

Our midfield is slow and not technical with no goal threat or creativity. We have no number 9 to run in behind or to get up the pitch and finish chances. Our full backs are dreadful going forward and never ever get to bylines. 

So are we set up to counter attack? 

I'd argue our coaches have no quality this season. The team are capable of playing forward, the team are capable of running in behind to stretch teams, the team are capable of pressing better, the team are capable of using our full backs to attack. 

why hasnt either coach recognised this or attempted to implement it? 

Just can't wait for season to end. 

Look at the goal we scored against Southampton.  It was our classic goal.  Paqueta gets it from deep, sets us away down the left...ball carried up field at pace, and the played across to Bowen on the other side cutting in to score.  Absolute classic counter attack goal.  All you need is a midfield setup to stifle, a guy like Paqueta that can play that pass, a ball carrier, and a finisher.

Our squad is well set for that.

[stubbo]

IMO the problem for our two managers this season is failing to recognise the squads strengths as things stand and to work within it.

Instead they've both ignored this, and tried to go to 'their' way of doing things. It seems managers these days have their way, and can't work with a different set of strengths.

Our squad is almost universally designed to play counter attacking football. It's what our 'star' attacking players are good at (Bowen, Kudus, Paqueta).  It's what our one paced midfield has been built around, and it's even what our goal keeper is good at (spectacular shot stopping).

But we've tried to change....we've brought in 'ball comfortable' defenders. We've brought in an attacker who is 'a drop deep and lay off, or sit in the box' type. But we've not changed enough to change our we play effectively.

We still don't have a midfield that won't get caught out in transition, or that is comfortable at ball retention.

So the right way to set our squad is to play a mid block...continue to limit space in behind...invite teams onto our ball-comfortable defenders, but then play direct to our counter attackers.

But the guys that have come in haven't recognised what we're good at. And teams know if they give us possession, we don't have players than can hurt them.

Spot on, Stubbo. Good analysis, that.

 

He is right in what he says but in reality it's a naïve view really. Coaches at this level all have their own way of playing regardless of the players they have at their disposals. They may recognise what we're good at but will not sway from their beliefs because that is the way they think a side should play and if they go away from that then they will be troubled that they don't really believe in what they are doing and that they won't get the best out of themselves. Happens at other clubs too, Amorin at Man Utd being one.

Totally agree Manuel.  The issue is in the hiring of a manager that isn't suited to the squad of players at his disposal.

It's where a DoF comes in as opposed to some troll spiv like Sullivan he clearly doesn't 'get it'.  Just another of the failings to lay at his door.