Ron Greenwood and England

[zico]

One for the older amongst us I suspect.  I was listening to a rather frank interview with Steven Gerrard about his time with England and he was rather honest about why England's so called Golden Generation failed.  "Egotistical Losers" was the expression he used to describe the clear cliques between Man United, Liverpool and Chelsea players, whose main focus was clearly on domestic and European success with their Clubs and this created a lack of bonding within the squad.  Nothing we haven't heard before but it certainly wasn't just a case of Sven trying to find a way to accomodate all of Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham, Scholes, Carrick, Rooney, Owen and Defoe!

It however got me thinking about Ron Greenwood's time with England.  I am reading Martin Peters Autobiography at the moment and like Bobby Moore, once again a player who whilst not having the warmest personal relationship with Greenwood, he cites him as "the" coach who made him the player he was and had the greatest of respect for the innovative training and coaching methods based on Ron's admiration for the European and certainly Hungarian football of the time.  This as we all know was the "West Ham Way" under Ron with the focus on passing, flair, technique, exploitation of space and entertaining attacking football.  Wonderful to watch when it came off but probably not the best way to try and win a Championship over 42 games as West Ham's League form generally proved.

This leads up to my point.  I was very young when Ron managed England and my hazy memories are limited to Trevor Brooking's goal that lodged in the stanchion, ironically against Hungary, and a last throw of the dice bringing a not 100% fit Keegan and Brooking on against Spain in the 1982 World Cup which saw England eliminated without losing a game.  I have no memories though of England being knocked out in the Group Stage of UEFA Euro 1980.

His record certainly isn't a disaster, and I recall that at one point he stated that he was going to resign but the players persuaded him otherwise so he clearly had their support, but my memories of his England teams aren't those of a free flowing attacking outfit that excited like his West Ham sides did, but rather a fairly dull England team that failed to impress for years during the 70's and 80's.  Like other England managers I think he generally ignored the likes of Alan Hudson, Stan Bowles and Frank Worthington who on first glance you would think that they were the perfect fit for a flair Greenwood team, although maybe Greenwood favoured flair with discipline.  I also wonder whether his defensive minded number two in Don Howe maybe stopped Ron from taking the shackles off and going for it rather than being the "safe pair of hands" the FA clearly preferred ahead of Brian Clough.

So in a nutshell, I am just wondering why Ron's England teams aren't remembered fondly playing wise as much as his innovative West Ham teams were, or do many of us just wear a pair of claret and blue specs with regard to his tenure at Upton Park?   

[Takashi Miike]

Wasn't his assistant the defence-minded Don Howe? I seem to remember at the time feeling Howe's influence was greater than it should have been.

Yes I researched a bit before posting and noticed it was Don Howe who was Assistant or at the very least a coach. As you say very defensive minded so somewhat surprised Ron had him although I seem to remember some back room staff seemed to stay from manager to manager, Howe being a case in point, I'm sure he was on Bobby Robson's staff. He was a lauded coach but cautious so chalk and cheese with Ron.

Don, also an assistant to Venables

[Takashi Miike]

Back to Gerrards comments, it’s was probably only the English press that was calling them the golden generation, the rest of the world were to busy practicing their skills, we probably never won owt because we were just not good enough.

 

Disagree. That 2002 World Cup was a serious side with unbelievable quality and we gave a shit hot Brazilian side (1 of the best ever) a real go in the Quarter Finals but just came up short against eventual winners against Germany who we smashed in Munich 1-5 not long before it. Had we won that game I reckon we were right on course to win it. The side just needed a tweak of formation change and then I think we could have gone all the way well worthy of the golden generation tag at the time. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/england ... cht/987571

This side was outrageous and we went toe-to-toe!

and a fluke cross changed the game

[eusebiovic]

I think Gerrard makes a very good point...

Until 2008, Spain were the world's greatest underachievers and the main reason given was the rivalry between Barcelona and Real Madrid. They were in their cliques and when things went wrong it was always the others fault.

The golden generation who were all born in the 80's were different though - they knew they had the skill but admired the robust tenacity of the English league. The live Premiership games on terrestrial T.V in the 90's was a revelation to all of them. To a lesser extent the gamesmanship of the Italians was also admired even if publicly they maintained a very begrudging respect for their old rivals.

When Luis Aragonés took over he laid down one simple rule...Barca and Real players were forbidden from sharing their hotel rooms with a club teammate. Everybody had to report sharp for breakfast and training at the agreed time but not in their cliques. 

It seems a very simple thing but it is widely regarded that this was the spark which lit the blue touch paper.

I am pretty sure that this is probably what Gerrard was getting at...

 

[Massive Attack]

Back to Gerrards comments, it’s was probably only the English press that was calling them the golden generation, the rest of the world were to busy practicing their skills, we probably never won owt because we were just not good enough.

 

 

Disagree. That 2002 World Cup was a serious side with unbelievable quality and we gave a shit hot Brazilian side (1 of the best ever) a real go in the Quarter Finals but just came up short against eventual winners against Germany who we smashed in Munich 1-5 not long before it. Had we won that game I reckon we were right on course to win it. The side just needed a tweak of formation change and then I think we could have gone all the way well worthy of the golden generation tag at the time. 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/england ... cht/987571

This side was outrageous and we went toe-to-toe!

[zico]

Wasn't his assistant the defence-minded Don Howe? I seem to remember at the time feeling Howe's influence was greater than it should have been.

Yes I researched a bit before posting and noticed it was Don Howe who was Assistant or at the very least a coach. As you say very defensive minded so somewhat surprised Ron had him although I seem to remember some back room staff seemed to stay from manager to manager, Howe being a case in point, I'm sure he was on Bobby Robson's staff. He was a lauded coach but cautious so chalk and cheese with Ron.

[Gaffer58]

Back to Gerrards comments, it’s was probably only the English press that was calling them the golden generation, the rest of the world were to busy practicing their skills, we probably never won owt because we were just not good enough.

[62Hammer]

Wasn't his assistant the defence-minded Don Howe? I seem to remember at the time feeling Howe's influence was greater than it should have been.

[Takashi Miike]

I remember when he picked seven Liverpool players in one England team,
including old man Callaghan who had actually played in the 1966 World Cup
.

 

I can sort of understand that as Liverpool were the team of the late 70's and 80's.  Picking whatever English players they had had a certain logic to it being successful in both domestic and European football, it was probably thought that as they all knew each other and played together that would benefit the England team.  Whether Ron tried to replicate what Shankly and then Paisley did tactically though I don't know, although I agree it was probably over kill!

As others have said though I am surprised he didn't include many flair players that were around at the time and certainly omitting Dev who was a far better player than Rix IMO.  How about Billy Bonds?  Yes, I know he was going to play a friendly against Brazil at one point before Parksy broke two of his ribs coming for a cross but no cap between 77 and 82, especially for a player who could play midfield, centre back, right back.  A player like that would be invaluable now.

zico, I think emlyn hughes occupied that role. in my opinion, an inferior player to bill

[Far Cough UKunt]

Bertie Mee said to Bill Shankly have you heard of the north bank Highbury, Shanks said no I don't think so.....

[zico]

I remember when he picked seven Liverpool players in one England team,
including old man Callaghan who had actually played in the 1966 World Cup
.

 

 

I can sort of understand that as Liverpool were the team of the late 70's and 80's.  Picking whatever English players they had had a certain logic to it being successful in both domestic and European football, it was probably thought that as they all knew each other and played together that would benefit the England team.  Whether Ron tried to replicate what Shankly and then Paisley did tactically though I don't know, although I agree it was probably over kill!

As others have said though I am surprised he didn't include many flair players that were around at the time and certainly omitting Dev who was a far better player than Rix IMO.  How about Billy Bonds?  Yes, I know he was going to play a friendly against Brazil at one point before Parksy broke two of his ribs coming for a cross but no cap between 77 and 82, especially for a player who could play midfield, centre back, right back.  A player like that would be invaluable now.

[WHU(Exeter)]

"91 teams play football, West Ham are football"

[frank marker]

I remember him taking over after Revie and bringing some dignity and integrity back to the role of England Manager. 

In a European Chgampionship qualifier v Denmark we won away 3-4. After the match the interviewer asked him if he was concerned that England had let in three, and he patiently explained that the point of the game was to score more than the opposition.  

[violator]

The day after we beat France 3-1 I was on a school trip to Calais, I remember we had fisticuffs with the local kids, and chucking those fucking french bangers at each other in the street. We had a massive black kid who's name was Terry White (I shit you not) and he was just punching these frog kids off one by one. Oh and I managed to smuggle more bangers back home in some shitty 4 metre telescoping fishing whip. Thanks Ron.

[RBshorty]

The blazer's always felt Sir Alf had too much power. And made sure nobody else was going to interfere with that cash cow. (And still do.) Like the UN. The FA is "Job for the Boys.!"

[the coming of gary]

I remember when he picked seven Liverpool players in one England team,
including old man Callaghan who had actually played in the 1966 World Cup
.

[Massive Attack]

West Ham United used to be referred to as "The Aristocrats" of English football.

This stems from the late Fifties and early Sixties when they were quick to embrace "continental" ideas, in the days before we were familiar with widespread European football.

As a Second Division side in the late Fifties, captained by Malcolm Allison, they were among the first to use lightweight kit and continental boots and would even come on to the pitch before a game for a pre-match warm-up - unheard of in those days. This sophistication was continued into the Sixties by Ron Greenwood and they experimented tactically and played a strictly "ball on the ground" game. Greenwood encouraged his players to become qualified FA coaches and they were one of the first to go on extensive foreign tours. This skillful, intelligent way of playing attracted adjectives such as sophisticated or aristocratic. Also known as The West Ham Way under Greenwood. 

Well ahead of his time was our Ron.

[southbankbornnbred]

the mismanagement/exclusion of le tissier by successive england managers is the biggest advert for how backward our coaching philosophy was/is. a talent that good should have been a key part of the england set up, instead treated like shit but at least we can celebrate jordan henderson's 86 caps, not a single one memorable

Quite. And we did it for decades from the 60s through to the 2010s due to the FA's blazer-squad approach. Hoddle, Barnes, Le Tissier, Dev...there's quite a list. Creativity quashed so that people could run hard in a predictable 4-4-2 that the rest of the world unpicked with ease. Graham Taylor was merely the apex of idiocy when it came to England managers. Others were almost as bad.

[Takashi Miike]

the mismanagement/exclusion of le tissier by successive england managers is the biggest advert for how backward our coaching philosophy was/is. a talent that good should have been a key part of the england set up, instead treated like shit but at least we can celebrate jordan henderson's 86 caps, not a single one memorable

[southbankbornnbred]

never forgave him for taking the arsenal sex case over dev in 82

Yep, not taking Dev was a disaster. 100% should have been England's left-winger from 1980 through to his bad injury. How he picked Rix above Dev is beyond me - and he should have known better.

[RBshorty]

The International game and the FA are about one thing only. Feeding the pigs. And no fucker is coming between them. And sticking their heads in the trough.

[zico]

Yes I meant to say "like the England teams of the 70's", I know he came in late in the decade.  Good point about Hoddle and that's the perfect example really, the perfect style of Ron player but in Spain I think he went with Bryan Robson and Ray Wilkins in a 442.  

[Takashi Miike]

never forgave him for taking the arsenal sex case over dev in 82

[southbankbornnbred]

He wasn't England manager for most of the 70s, fella.

He took over at short notice from Don Revie, who resigned and left the team in the stink. England were already struggling to qualify for the 78 world cup at that point.

Ron hadn't been a manager for a few years, so he took a while to find his feet with England after Revie. Hence, 1980 was a bit of a non-event. But he at least got them to qualify after two missed World Cups.

1982 started brightly with the big win over France (eventual semi-finalists). But it faded away. Keegan and Brooking being injured was not ideal. And, as with other England managers, a reluctance to build a side around Hoddle's incredible vision left us lacking creativity.

If Greenwood had got the job when Revie got it (although you can see why Revie got it) things might have been different. I think we'd have qualified for '78 for starters.