West Ham United 25/26 relegation thread

[muskie]

Odds slashed from 5/1 to 7/2.

Watch this space.

I think we're fucked.

[southbankbornnbred]

I felt the same about Lopetegui and Potter.

They are paycheque managers.

Moyes, for all his flaws, got it. Bilic likewise. Even Pardew “got” it.

Some players get it quickly: like Tevez, when he asked about the hammers on the badge and was blown away by what the history meant. Others don’t.

Hope I’m wrong. But I feel like Nuno doesn’t get that it’s visceral here.







 

 

Think that's a bit unfair on Lopetegui. I felt he tried to embrace the Club from the start, would get involved and try to understand it and would go out of his way to give it his all for the cause. Worth remembering he immediately returned to the dug out very soon after burying his beloved old man during a difficult patch. Never hid and wanted to turn it around. Had an effect on the likes of Bowen who made a big song and dance about him going on Instagram which I wouldn't expect the same reaction to Nuno or Potter. I think even at one point he was doing skits with Danny Dyer trying to have fun with it. It felt like he did care and not just here for a quick buck unlike this present wanker who made sure to squeeze as much out of Sullivan as he could before joining disputing the contract length etc. 

Sorry, mate, I know you liked Lopetegui. But I just never got that impression of him at all. He barely spoke English, despite having managed at Wolves for almost a year. He didn't come across as integrated at the club at all. And he was in and out of West Ham before you could blink - just like Potter. History won't be kind to him here. It's just how it is.

[Massive Attack]

I felt the same about Lopetegui and Potter.

They are paycheque managers.

Moyes, for all his flaws, got it. Bilic likewise. Even Pardew “got” it.

Some players get it quickly: like Tevez, when he asked about the hammers on the badge and was blown away by what the history meant. Others don’t.

Hope I’m wrong. But I feel like Nuno doesn’t get that it’s visceral here.






 

 

 

Think that's a bit unfair on Lopetegui. I felt he tried to embrace the Club from the start, would get involved and try to understand it and would go out of his way to give it his all for the cause. Worth remembering he immediately returned to the dug out very soon after burying his beloved old man during a difficult patch. Never hid and wanted to turn it around. Had an effect on the likes of Bowen who made a big song and dance about him going on Instagram which I wouldn't expect the same reaction to Nuno or Potter. I think even at one point he was doing skits with Danny Dyer trying to have fun with it. It felt like he did care and not just here for a quick buck unlike this present wanker who made sure to squeeze as much out of Sullivan as he could before joining disputing the contract length etc. 

[southbankbornnbred]

Everybody has a go at some fans at some point. Even Greenwood did in the 60s.

I think Pardew might be the last West Ham manager who the fans actually sang about.

WE'VE GOT SUPER DAVID MOYES

You are obviously Spurs as who could forget "Slaven Bilic's Claret and Blue Army"

Yeah, I'm definitely Spurs, me! I love the cunts.

[Swiss.]

Everybody has a go at some fans at some point. Even Greenwood did in the 60s.

I think Pardew might be the last West Ham manager who the fans actually sang about.

WE'VE GOT SUPER DAVID MOYES

You are obviously Spurs as who could forget "Slaven Bilic's Claret and Blue Army"

And "Super Super Slav..Super Slaven Bilic"'

[Swiss.]

Pretty sure I remember him slagging off our fans whilst our manager.

Everybody has a go at some fans at some point. Even Greenwood did in the 60s.

I think Pardew might be the last West Ham manager who the fans actually sang about.

WE'VE GOT SUPER DAVID MOYES

You are obviously Spurs as who could forget "Slaven Bilic's Claret and Blue Army"

[southbankbornnbred]

Pretty sure I remember him slagging off our fans whilst our manager.

Everybody has a go at some fans at some point. Even Greenwood did in the 60s.

I think Pardew might be the last West Ham manager who the fans actually sang about.

WE'VE GOT SUPER DAVID MOYES

Fair point. Although just as many called for his head every few weeks!

[Mad Ferret]

 

Pretty sure I remember him slagging off our fans whilst our manager.

Everybody has a go at some fans at some point. Even Greenwood did in the 60s.

I think Pardew might be the last West Ham manager who the fans actually sang about.

WE'VE GOT SUPER DAVID MOYES

[southbankbornnbred]

Pardew's a good example. He got it - almost straight away. He wasn't the greatest manager we've had, but he quickly felt part of the fabric of the club and understood it.

Pretty sure I remember him slagging off our fans whilst our manager.

Everybody has a go at some fans at some point. Even Greenwood did in the 60s.

I think Pardew might be the last West Ham manager who the fans actually sang about.

[southbankbornnbred]

I think much of the disconnect with too many managers comes from Sullivan's foolish, self-inflicted and restrictive parameters for selecting managers.

The first two questions when you're changing managers should be: 1. Is the potential new guy a good manager - and why? and 2. Does he fit the club (and all that entails)?

Sullivan's first two questions are: Is he unemployed/out of contract? And does he have some Premier League experience (almost irrespective of success)?

Sullivan's cheap, Del Boy methods are ruinous. But we know that.

[Mad Ferret]

Pardew's a good example. He got it - almost straight away. He wasn't the greatest manager we've had, but he quickly felt part of the fabric of the club and understood it.

Pretty sure I remember him slagging off our fans whilst our manager.

[southbankbornnbred]

Even taking into account his “OK” (but getting worse) record in the Premier League (which is all that matters), there are some intangibles that you have to consider at clubs like West Ham.

Tuesday night was alarming. Joyously hugging Forest players as they left the pitch, in front of your own fans who haven’t seen you win for ten games, said a lot about Nuno’s mindset and lack of fit so far.

After a defeat like that, you don’t act like you’re more delighted for your former players. In the previous game, he went straight down the tunnel at Wolves and didn’t even encourage his players to go and visit the away fans after such a poor performance. Instincts are important. His are not good - he doesn’t seem to give a monkeys about West Ham or us fans.

My feeling is he’s in this for himself. We could be any club to him. 




 

Oh I totally agree with at.  But that's a different thing entirely. That's optics and presentation...but in terms of his pure abiliuty to get results across different situations, we're an outlier.

Frankly you could level the same at the great majority of players in our squad...how many of them are just passing through in their careers? Very few aren't.  The fact that a performance like Wolves can happen shows you just how much it really matters to most of them...it matters as much as their personal and professional pride matter.

No, you're missing the point. It's not PR "optics and presentation". Anybody could wing that and not mean it.

I'm saying that this club is, far more than most, visceral. It has to mean something. When I say instincts are important, the concern is not "optics and presentation" - it is "what does he feel in those moments?"

He wandered nonchalently down the tunnel at Wolves, and he celebrated with Forest players after the final whistle at the London Stadium. He doesn't think West Ham yet. And I doubt he will.

Pardew's a good example. He got it - almost straight away. He wasn't the greatest manager we've had, but he quickly felt part of the fabric of the club and understood it.

[stubbo-admin]

Even taking into account his “OK” (but getting worse) record in the Premier League (which is all that matters), there are some intangibles that you have to consider at clubs like West Ham.

Tuesday night was alarming. Joyously hugging Forest players as they left the pitch, in front of your own fans who haven’t seen you win for ten games, said a lot about Nuno’s mindset and lack of fit so far.

After a defeat like that, you don’t act like you’re more delighted for your former players. In the previous game, he went straight down the tunnel at Wolves and didn’t even encourage his players to go and visit the away fans after such a poor performance. Instincts are important. His are not good - he doesn’t seem to give a monkeys about West Ham or us fans.

My feeling is he’s in this for himself. We could be any club to him. 


 

Oh I totally agree with at.  But that's a different thing entirely. That's optics and presentation...but in terms of his pure abiliuty to get results across different situations, we're an outlier.

Frankly you could level the same at the great majority of players in our squad...how many of them are just passing through in their careers? Very few aren't.  The fact that a performance like Wolves can happen shows you just how much it really matters to most of them...it matters as much as their personal and professional pride matter.

[stubbo-admin]

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.

All I'd point to with Nuno is his results in the other jobs he's had:

NunoStats.png

We're a clear outlier, including across three PL teams of a similar stature.  So something is rotten at West Ham that has resulted in such a clear drop off from what has been pretty consistent for him since 2012.

One thing I will say though...he's had historical accusation of signing players through Mendes at inflated fees.  I can almost stomach this at West Ham just because we've had the same through Sullivan for ages.

 

Ah, the DATA!

I can’t take seriously an assessment of a manager with a win % ratio massively boosted by spells at the biggest club in a three-club league - and his highest win ratio in Saudi Arabia.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

So take those clubs out and then reassess.  However you spin it, his (lack of) performance at West Ham as manager is a huge outlier.

[wils]

what is there to defend after such a shit show

He is going to get rid of the tourists, VAR and make the tickets cheaper. We'll all be able to sit closer to the pitch and we will get to play Millwall. There is a lot to defend.

[boleyn8420]

I cannot understand anyone defending this absolute imposter of a manager.
He has tried everything he knows to get sacked, playing full backs on opposite sides, not playing a striker, Paqueta false 9, unexpectedly 2 up at Bournemouth  did his level best with subs to fuck that up, Brighton equalise, subs the striker straight away etc, etc , etc
We are 7 points from safety, he took 1 point in 12 from Fulham, Brighton, Wolves and Forest, what is there to defend after such a shit show

[kylay]

All I'd point to with Nuno is his results in the other jobs he's had:

NunoStats.png

We're a clear outlier, including across three PL teams of a similar stature.  So something is rotten at West Ham that has resulted in such a clear drop off from what has been pretty consistent for him since 2012.

One thing I will say though...he's had historical accusation of signing players through Mendes at inflated fees.  I can almost stomach this at West Ham just because we've had the same through Sullivan for ages.

 

 

I think you're correct. This is easily the most difficult situation he's walked into. He hasn't had a transfer window, and the sample size is small relative to the other stints. AFCON has fucked us badly without 2 of our better players for 2 hugely important games, and given our paper-thin depth, it's no small handicap. 1st of January 2007 we were on 18 points and 20 in 2011. I don't know whether to stick or twist with him, and even if the board sack him, who the hell would want to come in to this snake pit. Maybe we can get Tevez on a player-manager deal in a 2 for 1 deal. 

[THUNDERCLINT]

All things considered right now yes I would, and if he stays I think I will be proven correct.

Do you think he's shit?

If it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit then yeah it's a crackhead called Nuno.

 

So we can add coprobhagia along with necrophilia and doing crack to your weird deviant habits.....wrong un 

Pavlovianism in action.

Ring the bell and the salvating nonce comes running.

[simons]

Yep, he’s just passing through.


He has as much love and care for this club, as he did for Spurs, which is fuck all. Hopefully we’ll find someone with more of a connection with the club, if and when we are finally relegated. I don’t want him anywhere near the club if we go down, and will hold him in the same regard as Grant. 

[southbankbornnbred]

I felt the same about Lopetegui and Potter.

They are paycheque managers.

Moyes, for all his flaws, got it. Bilic likewise. Even Pardew “got” it.

Some players get it quickly: like Tevez, when he asked about the hammers on the badge and was blown away by what the history meant. Others don’t.

Hope I’m wrong. But I feel like Nuno doesn’t get that it’s visceral here.

[XKhammer]

It’s alright, Manuel said he keep Nuno even after relegation.

All things considered right now yes I would, and if he stays I think I will be proven correct.

Do you think he's shit?

If it looks like shit, smells like shit and tastes like shit then yeah it's a crackhead called Nuno.

 

 

So we can add coprobhagia along with necrophilia and doing crack to your weird deviant habits.....wrong un 

[southbankbornnbred]

Even taking into account his “OK” (but getting worse) record in the Premier League (which is all that matters), there are some intangibles that you have to consider at clubs like West Ham.

Tuesday night was alarming. Joyously hugging Forest players as they left the pitch, in front of your own fans who haven’t seen you win for ten games, said a lot about Nuno’s mindset and lack of fit so far.

After a defeat like that, you don’t act like you’re more delighted for your former players. In the previous game, he went straight down the tunnel at Wolves and didn’t even encourage his players to go and visit the away fans after such a poor performance. Instincts are important. His are not good - he doesn’t seem to give a monkeys about West Ham or us fans.

My feeling is he’s in this for himself. We could be any club to him. 

 

[southbankbornnbred]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.

All I'd point to with Nuno is his results in the other jobs he's had:

NunoStats.png

We're a clear outlier, including across three PL teams of a similar stature.  So something is rotten at West Ham that has resulted in such a clear drop off from what has been pretty consistent for him since 2012.

One thing I will say though...he's had historical accusation of signing players through Mendes at inflated fees.  I can almost stomach this at West Ham just because we've had the same through Sullivan for ages.

 

 

Ah, the DATA!

I can’t take seriously an assessment of a manager with a win % ratio massively boosted by spells at the biggest club in a three-club league - and his highest win ratio in Saudi Arabia.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

[XKhammer]

The Fat lady hasn't Sang yet....
We're well capable of staying up

Fair play fella as its normally me who is an optimist but somehow this feels like we are going down this season 
The number of late goals we concede is costing us dear 

[stubbo-admin]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.

All I'd point to with Nuno is his results in the other jobs he's had:

We're a clear outlier, including across three PL teams of a similar stature.  So something is rotten at West Ham that has resulted in such a clear drop off from what has been pretty consistent for him since 2012.

One thing I will say though...he's had historical accusation of signing players through Mendes at inflated fees.  I can almost stomach this at West Ham just because we've had the same through Sullivan for ages.

[southbankbornnbred]

Much as we all know the Redkanpp/Bonds history, so Redknapp isn't well liked, just heard an interview with him on TalkSport and he made some good points.

In summary he basically just said our players aren't good enough. 

He used Burnley as an example...last season they dominated...same manager saying the same things, same training routines etc.  But the difference in levels between the two leagues is so great that they've moved up and are simply out of their depth.

For me, it's largely the same with Nuno.  His hisotry even up until last season shows he knows what he's doing.  Gets results. Same guy, doing and saying the same things.  Winning games.

But he's now with a squad that are simply not very good.  If we assess the actual quality levels:

GK:
Areola (worst in the league last season...binned as 3rd choice French keeper);
Hermansen (relegated with Leicester, looks worse than Areola)

FB:
KWP (relegated with Southampton),
Scarles (young kid trying to make his way),
Diouf (Czech league youth prospect bought to play wingback not full back)
AWB (Premier League standard and proven).

CB:
Kilman (woeful),
Mavropanos (signed to be backup to starting CBs),
Todibo (unproven in the PL...cant win headers...good player at mid-division French side.).
Mayers (young kid, making his way)

CM:
Potts (only ever played Championship, young and learning...shouldn't be first choice).
Magassa (was in and out of Monaco team...prospect). 
Fernandes (numbers suggest a good play in the relegated Southampton side, but still young and only second season in the league). 
Soucek (physically not the player he was and no longer able to compete phycially).
Rodriguez, Irving...no comment needed.

AM/FW:
Paqueta (Clearly a high quality player wut with clear flaws that can't be absorbed well within this team). 
Bowen (Clearly PL standard). 
Summerville (good numbers in the Championship...shown nothing in the PL). 
Castellanos (Jury out, but been an ok to good player in weaker foreign leagues);
Pablo (young prospect on a hot streak in a weak league and moved up several levels to come to the Premier League.

Our squad has 3 players who are clearly and undisputedly Premier League standard: AWB, Bowen and Paqueta...and that's not top 4 Premier League level, but more like Mid tier Premier League level.

We have a batch of young players 20-22 who may end up being good enough but certainly aren't established and equipped for a dog fight.  And then a bunch of players that are simply not the required standard.

And then look at players we've lost in the same context either through sales or departures at end of their careers:

Fabianski, Cresswell, Ogbonna, Zouma, Coufal, Rice, Kudus, Antonio, Emerson, Noble even, Dawson. 

Solid established proven Premier League pros, all replaced on the cheap with substandard replacements. 9 of them with clear leadership skills.

It's not really any surprise we are where we are. The squad has been allowed to drift in terms of quality, has no strong characters for when times are tough.

None of that is on this manager.

I think this is an excellent assessment. Except I’d add that, personally, I’m not sold on Nuno and never have been. I think he’s yet another symptom of Sullivan’s unwillingness to buy a good manager out of their contract.

I hope he proves doubters wrong. Because I want to see any manager at West Ham do well. But I’m not convinced. He had one excellent year at Forest, fuelled by Wood being on fire (excuse the pun). But I’m not sold on him.

Most likely, if he relegated us, he’d have to go.