Modern football fans.

[wils]

Two stories. Both in the Telegraph. Modern football is a bit shit isn't it?

This is the thing about our stadium. Its not great as we all know. But these two stadiums, one regarded as the best modern football stadium in the world and the other  an old skool stadium, yet they are both having the same problems we are having.

It's modern fans. Not the stadiums.

[only1billybonds]

As well as all the reasons stated,another factor is saturation coverage og football and sport in general. Most of us on here grew up in an age that only showed a couple of live games a season whereas now,you can 'support' a team without leaving your house. Also, a big factor now is geography in the sense that more fans live further from their clubs than 'live around the corner' as it used to be. I had the ridiculous situation a few seasons ago when I was watching us play Liverpool in my local (Berkshire) pub which is 27 miles outside Central London. When our 3rd goal went in I flew off my stool cheering and got told to keep it down as I was in a 'Liverpool pub'. Granted,there were a load of Liverpool shirt wearers around but not one Scouse accent. Told the bloke to fuck off as at least I sound like a West Ham fan.
Anyway, my main point is that in today's world,you can watch three games a day, seven days a week from anywhere in the world without getting your arse off the sofa.

[Gary Strodders shank]

People are too interested in checking there phones half the time than watching the game.

Football has also become far too commercialised and sanitised these days and is no longer the working class escapism it was in the previous decade.

Most newbie fans are twats from the suburbs with more money than sense 
.
It's the same with horse racing 
.
Go to Cheltenham and its full of boozed up and coked up twenty somethings in peaky blinders caps spunking money and giving it large but with no real affiliation to the sport 

Sign of the times sadly with many old school fans not bothering or switching to non league 





 

[zico]

I think most sports lack the mavericks that get bums on seats as well these days.  Yes they are finely tuned athletes but in a team setting the flair has been coached out of them and as individuals they just have a robust plan that seems the same as everyone else but the top ones just do it better. In snooker you don't have a Jimmy or Alex anymore although I would argue that Davis and Hendry would probably be mavericks these days!  In football I think every club in the PL had a better player 10/20/30 years ago than any they have now.  Osgood, Bowles, Hudson, Brooking, Keegan, Dalglish, Best, Charlton, Worthington, Marsh, I could go on, all better than any current top player imo, certainly more entertaining.   I think up until say 2010 football was still ok, but even then you could argue the likes of "The Special One" Jose coached the flair out of Joe Cole.  Yes he won medals but never reached his potential.  I think certainly since 2011-2013 it's gone on a downward spiral bar that one season for us under Slaven when it all seemed to be like it used to be with the flair of Payet and Lanzini.  

[eusebiovic]

Just as a reference point - America is suffering exactly the same thing with sports. 

NHL crowds are dwindling the most. Even big well know NHL clubs are not attracting big crowds. And the age of the crowds is middle to old age. Young kids are not getting into the NHL. And when you look at the NHL historically it is a very working class sport. Look at clubs like Boston Bruins, Detroit Redwings, Toronto Mapleleafs, Montreal Canadiens..... These clubs were born out of industry. Steel, Timber, Cars..... And in the 60's, 70's and 80's, you would see normal guys from those cities working in the factories one day and then playing on the ice next. 

The kids now don't have any connection to industry as those industries no longer maintain the best part of a cities employment. 

Different times. 

It's the same thing with Snooker

I went to the Ally Pally last week to watch a session of The Masters.

The crowd was predominantly boomers and generation x (me). The younger ones in that crowd were certainly pushing 40. It's different in China though - most of their players are treated like rock stars and the average age of the crowd watching them is at the very least 30 odd years younger.

Ronnie called it years ago - it's the future, you have to accept it because the demographic says it all.

[Russ of the BML]

Just as a reference point - America is suffering exactly the same thing with sports. 

NHL crowds are dwindling the most. Even big well know NHL clubs are not attracting big crowds. And the age of the crowds is middle to old age. Young kids are not getting into the NHL. And when you look at the NHL historically it is a very working class sport. Look at clubs like Boston Bruins, Detroit Redwings, Toronto Mapleleafs, Montreal Canadiens..... These clubs were born out of industry. Steel, Timber, Cars..... And in the 60's, 70's and 80's, you would see normal guys from those cities working in the factories one day and then playing on the ice next. 

The kids now don't have any connection to industry as those industries no longer maintain the best part of a cities employment. 

Different times. 

[wils]

I also believe thats it is apathy, take watching England, in the 80's and early 90's we could all list Englands starting 11 (bar injuries) now, you couldn't name it from one game to the next

Mainly cos we can't pronounce half their fucking names.

[zico]

I also think todays generation doesn't have the sense of history that previous generations had, you only need to see the muted reaction to Billy Bonds passing compared to Bobby Moores.  That doesn't just go for football, I think it's other sports, music, films, television, and history in general.  I grew up knowing about the Golden Age of Hollywood, the music of the 60's, the fact that Henry VIII had six wives or that Jack the Ripper had been a serrial killer in 1888.  You ask a youngster now to name 5 Hitchcock films, who played at The Cavern in Liverpool in the 60's and how many of those six wives old Henry beheaded they probably wouldn't have a clue, so it's not surprising they have no knowledge of Vic Watson, Budgie Byrne or David Cross!  What is really strange is that if any generation had the opportunity to know everything about everything it's those in the last 10/15 years with the internet and phones where everything is available at the touch of a button.  Maybe that's half the problem.

[eusebiovic]

Football used to be a fun pastime. Nothing more nothing less. The top players were paid pretty well compared to the average living wage from the late 60's onwards so they could afford a semi-detached in the suburbs with all mod cons but that was about it. Nobody begrudged their favourite player doing well for themselves. 

We enjoyed that golden period up until the 90's which was still a laugh because many of those footballers in the initial period of the Premiership probably grew up with a lot of us kicking a ball in a cage on an estate or on an open space which often wasn't even a park although obviously we would also play at the local park on occasion as well. 

We would see this generation in the local area in pubs and clubs and just knocking about on their downtime but they were the last ones to do that. Generation X init? I grew up in Lambeth and would regularly see Chelsea players out and about in Brixton and Clapham even further out in places like Richmond and Wimbledon - getting pissed up with everybody else! Palace players would regularly be found knocking around Dulwich and Streatham as well.

Look at all the rugby union playing towns in the commuter belt - nobody in those places would give football the time of day - most councillors would actively do everything they could which was detrimental and a hindrance to it's development. It largely came from inner-city working class areas and grounds were often located in "the wrong part of town". It was tolerated rather than encouraged.

The South Coast is a very good case study - now that there's money in it all of a sudden Brighton, Bournemouth, Southampton, even Portsmouth went from having ramshackle grounds without a pot to piss in to having clubs who have regularly spent time in the premiership. 

The average wage that a footballer earns these days means the dynamic has changed forever and many young lads who come through the academies are noticeably middle class. They are all taught the same thing which is why most players are so generic these days. They rarely improvise it all comes from the textbook. It's very rare to see anybody do something off the cuff or unpredictable.

Your modern day fan reflects that. It is what it is.

[Far Cough UKunt]

On the plus side, we as footballing people and the public in general have become a lot more cosmopolitan, I remember the '70 World Cup and the commentators (David Coleman comes to mind?) were having a hell of a time pronouncing some of the players names, for instance Jairzinho was subtitled on the screen as JAIR, which is funny as West Brom had a player called Dick Krzywicki, so there is that that has improved.

[Massive Attack]

Put your hands over your eyes Nurse Ratched..

I think others make a very good point by the infiltration of The Birds. Just like an Alfred Hitchcock (see the connection) horror, the swarm of birds to the man's working class game has had a detrimental sanitised effect. Everything's now so woke, cunty and polite which they've helped cause. To the point we even now have them meddling and making decisions in our Boardroom ffs!

*slides off his sexist soap box and climbs back on his baldist box*

 

[WHU(Exeter)]

I think there are still exceptions to a lot of what's been mentioned below, just a few clubs where fans aren't all glued to their mobiles, as much as they are the game and still sing pretty much non-stop, whatever way the games going. Not the 'ultra' arranged stuff like Palace, just a decent old style atmosphere still. Few and far between and likely dwindling. 

Certainly further down the leagues teams mostly and non-league are where it's still there I think?

So I don't think it's hit ALL clubs 

all-seaters were the start of the demise

[Fat, Bald n 50]

Ive felt this for a while. Its not the stadium or the board etc. Most people are fucking annoying and the era of watching football in a stadium as we experienced has ended.

The nail in the coffin, i think, was covid. Our best season in recent memory, no one was there.
People got used to watching at home, and didnt go back. Or they accepted being herded around like idiots and sitting quietly. 

Its not just football, any sort of major public event is the same -  Pubs are not what they were. Its a shift in society - not just football supporters.




 

Life styles have changed, gen Z no longer go to the pub to watch a 5.30 kick off then stay till its time to get a taxi to go to a club like us gen X did.  I also believe thats it is apathy, take watching England, in the 80's and early 90's we could all list Englands starting 11 (bar injuries) now, you couldn't name it from one game to the next

[wils]

I agree to a certain extent, I was at that semi final and the continued singing after hackett's decision will never be seen again (by any club). was also at goodison in 1999, when we were battered 6-0, and the fans kept fake celebrating us scoring. completely took the piss out of ourselves for ninety minutes, but those were a different time. we hadn't had sixteen years of clear animosity from a board, and we still had a home rather than a rented shithole. they (gsb) created the bleakness surrounding the experience

 

 

Nothing I disagree with there. But each club's fanbase will have its own unique grievances or none at all. Yet all clubs are suffering the same malaise. Regardless of their stadium configuration or fanbase demographic. 

If you look at the links people are posting of WHO from the webarchive twenty odd years ago in one of the other threads, there is nothing new about fans saying 'game's gone' etc. Or saying they have had it with the club and cancelling their season tickets. Plus ca change and all that. But there is now truly something rotten in the state of modern football. 

[Massive Attack]

There are so many factors - Most of them mentioned. But the youngsters these days have so much other stuff to do. Young men and boys have their phones, computers / games consoles, online chat rooms. Indoors they got Netflix, Prime etc etc. They got gym memberships, golf is now more accessible to young men... I mean, god forbid, my nephew who is 17 even goes out for meals with his mates as do alot of young guys. They have now got better paid jobs and so have much more access to lots of other stuff. 

Compare that to 70's and 80's when basically for boys and young men, their football club was literally the only thing they had. It created the tribal feel and atmosphere. That's now gone. 

In other words, the mong generation. Most of us have had our time going more to games in our younger days whereas this lot would rather strap a phone to their head for all their entertainment. Although saying that can understand it more with how we play if the alternative was to follow West ham these days.

[Russ of the BML]

There are so many factors - Most of them mentioned. But the youngsters these days have so much other stuff to do. Young men and boys have their phones, computers / games consoles, online chat rooms. Indoors they got Netflix, Prime etc etc. They got gym memberships, golf is now more accessible to young men... I mean, god forbid, my nephew who is 17 even goes out for meals with his mates as do alot of young guys. They have now got better paid jobs and so have much more access to lots of other stuff. 

Compare that to 70's and 80's when basically for boys and young men, their football club was literally the only thing they had. It created the tribal feel and atmosphere. That's now gone. 

[Takashi Miike]

VAR is definitely a factor. But it's just put the boot in rather than being the cause. 

If you look at the QPR support though it confounds many of the factors we think caused it. Their fanbase has a big middle-class contingent. The old working-class fans have been dispersed westwards like ours has east. I know playing a London Premiere League club in the FA cup is a bigger game for them than for us. But they were quite impressive in my view. Maybe I am biased as they are local to me these days and I go over there from time to time.

The big difference for me is the expectation of the fans. If you think of the fans reaction to that semi-final when we were 4-0 down compared to how the fans reacted in all those big defeats in recent years. TV showing the empty seats as fans streaming out the stadium at half time.  We used to go as actors in the match; we now go as consumers. We are expecting others to provide atmosphere and think we have no part in generating it.

 

 

I agree to a certain extent, I was at that semi final and the continued singing after hackett's decision will never be seen again (by any club). was also at goodison in 1999, when we were battered 6-0, and the fans kept fake celebrating us scoring. completely took the piss out of ourselves for ninety minutes, but those were a different time. we hadn't had sixteen years of clear animosity from a board, and we still had a home rather than a rented shithole. they (gsb) created the bleakness surrounding the experience

[Massive Attack]

Cctv probably hasn't helped either. 

[Council Scum]

There are too many games

Too many games on the tele

It costs a fortune to go

VAR

Women started going in numbers after Italia 90.

All reasons why its not the same 

 

[wils]

VAR is definitely a factor. But it's just put the boot in rather than being the cause. 

If you look at the QPR support, though, it confounds many of the factors we think caused it. Their fanbase has a big middle-class contingent. The old working-class fans have been dispersed westwards like ours has east. I know playing a London Premiere League club in the FA cup is a bigger game for them than for us, but they were quite impressive in my view. Maybe I am biased as they are local to me these days and I go over there from time to time.

The big difference for me is the expectation of the fans. If you think of the fans reaction to that semi-final when we were 4-0 down compared to how the fans reacted in all those big defeats in recent years. TV showing the empty seats as fans streaming out the stadium at half time.  We used to go as actors in the match; we now go as consumers. We are expecting others to provide atmosphere and think we have no part in generating it.

[Takashi Miike]

When you watch old footage like this of the 1980 quarter final:

 

It's all young lads. Of course the atmosphere was raucous.

Now its kids, women, families, the whole demographic. 

I only have to see a still of psycho, and I smile. What a player

[Takashi Miike]

I'm amazed so many still go. a sport ruined by the increased tv money, technology and clear preferential treatment of a select group of clubs. the owners/directors had nothing but contempt for the fan base when I stopped going in the early 2000s, but now they'd be quite happy to see 60,000 tourists in that shithole. they've never had any loyalty to the fans. a sport where man city have (what is it) over a hundred charges of financial irregularities still unsettled, yet are allowed to continue hoovering up talent like semenyo/guehe ( the latter on £300k a week). the proposed european superleague needed to happen, it would have revived a dying product

[zico]

I was never a regular attendee anyway as I live down in Sussex and used to play or manage on Saturdays and Sundays, plus I ran an Adult Sunday Football League for just over a decade so never had the time.  Went to a few games with dad back in the 80's and 90's and when he died I did still make the trip up to some midweek games.  When my dodgy hips stopped me playing in 2012 that's when I started to go up more regularly, but that was generally after getting the bug after meeting some of the others on here at the time when we played in the Football For Fans Tournaments at Upton Park.  I would then drive or get the train to Upton Park when they started to make most of the area no parking zones.  I used to just get a ticket online if I fancied it and used to sit in the West Upper.  Saw some real crap at times, a bad home defeat to Wolves was one of the low points I seem to remember.  

A mate I hadn't seen for years came over from the US and I hadn't seen him for nearly 30 odd years so we went to West Ham v Brighton at the LS.  My first visit.  When Arnautovic scored I couldn't even see it as we were so far back.  We had driven up and it was a nightmare and I have to be honest the whole experience put me off.  Haven't been since.  I'm at that age now that I hate driving in the dark and can't be arsed to get the train, real pipe and slippers type these days.  Thing for me is though that in years gone by a Brooking, Bonds, McAvennie, Di Canio or Payet would get me up there.  Haven't seen much to grab my interest in recent years.  Agree with the below about Covid, certainly with us fans that made the odd trip, I think we just got used to being at home.  

[Far Cough UKunt]

I wouldn't mind if VAR got everything right but even with luxury of stop start video the absolute bellends STILL get it wrong, add the forensic nature of it and the whole thing is an abortion.

FUCK OFF!

[Eerie Decent]

Ferret is right about the atmosphere at Upton Park in the last few years, the Wolves cup game in the last season was as bad as anything you'd experience anywhere, atmosphere wise. Potentially the last ever FA Cup game we'd see there, and you could've heard a pin drop throughout.

There's a variety of reasons that can be argued about as to why atmospheres are shit, people's attitudes, cost of tickets, new stadiums, boring tactics etc. But without doubt, the final nail in the coffin, the death knell, has been VAR. An absolute abortion of an idea, purely money driven, and has killed the thing that made football stand out from the crowd from other sports.

Most other sports, points/scores/goals/wickets are ten a penny, happening often. Even Rugby, the closest in terms of point scoring regularity, has several ways of a team being able to score points, and has many natural long stoppages. Games/matches being stopped in other sports is par for the course. Football is unique, what other sport can be so entertaining, so thrilling, on the back of of a solitary score by one team?

When you're scared to cheer too much over a last minute winner against Spurs, or you have to calm your celebrations to wait 5 minutes to see if there has been a nudge on the keeper, you know the game's gone.

[honky cat]

When you watch old footage like this of the 1980 quarter final:

 

It's all young lads. Of course the atmosphere was raucous.

Now its kids, women, families, the whole demographic. 

Where have all the young lads gone, long time passing.

So where are they, what do they do on Saturdays now, play computer games? 

Without wanting to agree with ferret there were plenty of occasions when Upton Park was quiet, after all seater. I remember being at games with 10 mins to go and being the only person left in my row.  I did come back for palace and arsenal, last few games before we moved and it was rocking.

A combination of many factors, cost, entertainment value, societal change have left us where we are now. The big club cartel and VAR helping the death of the game along.

I expect the Burton game will be fantastic.