Moyes Out ( Released )

[Keep dreaming]

"Posted the same last year. Nothing has changed, except win don't win matches anymore. I'm fed up, we can do much better"

[Nick QQQ]

"Pellegrini wasn't all that though was he, plus we just didnt have the players a that time. He tried to make us Man City, in hindsight it was never going to work. I'm also not asking for an attacking manager or style of play, just for us to adapt to the playing staff and to have a plan b, maybe even plan c. Some good coaches out there that could give us that imo"

[Willtell]

Nick QQQ And I don't disagree with you either but sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Moyes is limited by his defensively minded approach. That we can all agree on I think. Would a more open attacking coach improve our top 7 positioning to top 4? I doubt it and Pellegrini should have shown us that...

[PwoperNaughtyButNot]

"We will win a few more The Moyes fans will say ""I told you so""ù We will finish top 10 and semis of Europe We won't have moved forward"

[Nick QQQ]

"Whilst i dont disagree with your assessment at a squad level, Sir Alf and Witchell, I still see Moyes as being too stubborn, outdated and generally not goo enough to adapt even if we did invest further. Containing to play Soucek, Cresswell, Fornals and up to recently Antonio ahead of much more capable players who can hold the ball and create possession tells us that. Downes in particular whilst still young seems excellent on the ball and presses well yet he can't get a prem game. We just dont have the modern coaching and management team we need to progress. That's clear in how one dimensional we are even with the new personnel and the ""like for like"" substitutions that Moyes tends to make so as not to lose the shape, which seems so important to him. It just lacks any creativity or optimism, particularly when drawing games."

[Willtell]

I am glad we agree Sir Alf. Low possession stats only show we have players that lack skills to hold onto the ball. And when they lose the ball is the danger time before the defence can settle itself. That's why we end up playing deep so often. Moyes has made a success of having two pacey strikers (Antonio & Bowen) that can break fast and tall players for set pieces. That's why we often get bogged down when the opponents play a similar game to us. Conversely we end up winning unexpectedly when top sides come to attack us at home. Set pieces and quick breaks were our strengths although we have largely been sussed out which is why we are struggling more now. Paqueta and Scamacca have shown we can start playing a better attacking game but we are a long way from being a Man City. I can't help but feel that sacking Moyes to go for an open attacking team before we have the squad to play that way would prove to be a disaster much as it was under Pellegrini

[Sir Alf]

"Willtell 11:57 Mon Oct 10 Yep your assessment is how I see it too. 180 million on players in one window was still not enough to transform our system of play etc. We still have 2 or 3 in the starting line up and 6 or 7 in the squad who are not technically good enough to play fast, possession based football with lots of movement. An opinion only of course. On the latterly mentioned matter of movement, we would need several upgrades to improve the overall pace and mobility in the team / squad. Teams all press us high and quickly which we simply cannot handle. Cresswell, Dawson, Zouma, Soucek, Coufal , Benrahma ( in a wide role ) and even old man Oggy now lacking pace. Not a problem for a team to have a couple of players that are not so quick like say Dawson but when you have 2 or 3 in midfield that are not that quick it can lead to you struggling to get and keep it as we have seen. Just bringing in Aguerd at the back, perhaps Emerson ( although his defensive discipline and positioning is a question mark) and Downes in midfield would help or at least you would hope so since they are not only a bit more mobile but also possess better technique ( passing and control ) than those they would replace? We shall see soon enough hopefully"

[Willtell]

"It's simple really. The best teams usually have the best possession stats. That's because the best teams usually have the best players that will pass their way from the back. That's not the entire story. Arsenal under Wenger's latter career kept the ball but lacked penetration.They had loads of possession but often didn't have the ability to break down well organised defences. All that proved was that Wenger didn't have the budget to sign top attackers while they paid for their new stadium. And he was too old to change his ways imo. Moyes sets us up to defend deep. Possession doesn't figure in his methods so much because he knows that our players aren't good enough to attack without giving the ball away a lot. I reckon it will take a few more top class players to improve the possession stats but we will still win games while getting outplayed. Perhaps if Scamacca and Paqueta adapt fully and one or two extra top players we might do a Leicester but I doubt Moyes could emulate a Pep, Arteta or Klopp if he wanted to. I'd like to think he would change tactics with a few more top players but he probably couldn't now""¶"

[Jasnik]

When we next play Man U I want us to take the game to them and not sit back like we do every time we play them. But it wont happen.

[ironsofcanada]

"Takashi Miike 11:17 Mon Oct 10 Yes we have to compete and because of our poor start take points off team we ""shouldn't"". I don't mind playing different ways against different teams, actually would prefer it but say realising someone like Cresswell is not going to do well against an elite winger needs to happen."

[Willtell]

Comma So you're arguing with Eerie on a weak argument then? Odd games will have different outcomes than over a season. As an earlier poster said Leicester won the PL with one of the lowest %'s and that was just below halfway proving what Eerie said was true. Most successful teams over longer periods have the greater possession.

[Takashi Miike]

"Ioc, it's obviously fine while he's getting results but it may fall down against the better teams in the league. at least he seems to be making the best of this easier fixture run"

[ironsofcanada]

"Takashi Miike 10:36 Mon Oct 10 I hear that complaint a lot of places, big and small clubs. (Because of my situation and the time of year and how much they spent - Toronto FC and the Bradley/Bradley situation is one of the loudest.) It is a failing and one of the many imperfections we at West Ham have to take into account. And of course, who plays best is subjective at times. My thinking is I want to be building something year to year. Last year we came closer to winning something than probably 2006. From where we were, it was closer, at least, to a winning culture. I know lots of qualifiers in there but its West Ham. Even the richest club then have to deal with the failings of managers and players. We just have more than most of the richest and less than most of the poorer. From a lot of reasons, a lot of them Moyes, we did not build on that beginnings of a regular European competition culture . To me, he has started to correct that with the buys and then some selections at least but it was slow enough that he need results and changes to keep his job."

[BRANDED]

Can you back up that stat with some data?

[Takashi Miike]

"for me, success is a by product of giving yourself the best chance to succeed. the only reason I moan is I don't think the manager does that, firstly with the over cautious approach to almost every game and his clear favouritism to certain players. talking about success on a west ham forum is pretty much irrelevant considering that we've won fuck all for over four decades. success to me would be seeing a more adventurous approach and picking players on merit. I don't think you can build a winning culture if required performance standards are different for particular players"

[ironsofcanada]

"I think a lot of last couple pages boil to down to what are your expectations of success. The vast majority of the time, the teams that win the domestic cups or the Premier League have the most money in the division. The Conference League is easier to win than those competition. When you are spending money consistently on better players, you tend to keep the ball more. With a few outliers, the amount of money a club has seems to correspond with possession stats. Now we have more money than we had before for player signings. But is that a one-off or a regular thing. And do we need to achieve a bar of success before more money will come in. On both sides, people point out that Moyes did admirably with what he had at Everton and has failed since in other positions before his stints with us. Can he ever play regular possession football when we need to, if we want to and can he be flexible in different situations? We are started to get the players with corresponding price tags, so there are fewer and fewer excuses for progress. How fast does that progress need to be? Man City began getting their cash injections in 2008. It took them until 2011 to win an FA Cup and 2012 to win a Premier League. Chelsea was much quicker but they were a Champions League club before Abramovich, while Man City were midtable. Still they go nothing for their first year. I happen to think that with some results and use of new signings, and football that I enjoyed watching, Moyes probably gets until after the World Cup at this point."

[Jasnik]

Yes they are wondering exactly that! :-).

[Tomshardware]

"C&P Leicester averaged 42.4% possession on the way to the title in 2015-16 ""ì the lowest of any Premier League champion in recorded history (since 2006-07). This was also the third lowest in the competition that season, and they won eight matches with under 40% possession."

[,]

"Willtell. Over this past weekend Arsenal had 10% less possession than Liverpool but won, Bournemouth had 12% less possession than Leicester but won, Spurs had 18% less possession than Brighton but won. Liverpool, Brighton and Leicester must be wondering how they lost."

[BRANDED]

Do you watch football?

[Willtell]

I can't see how it can be any different B.

[BRANDED]

"OK, so when the keeper and the defense fuck about with the ball how is that judged in the possession stats?"

[Willtell]

Can't happen BRANDED. Keepers can only hold onto the ball in their penalty area for 6 seconds. Hold as in with hands...

[BRANDED]

If a goalie holds the ball for ten minutes in a game how is that judged in possession stats?

[Willtell]

"What are you trying to prove Comma? Do you disagree with what Eerie said or are you just arguing for the sake of it? ""Since I've been watching football, the majority of the best teams who have actually consistently achieved things, have always had the lion's share of the ball for the majority of games they play."""

[,]

Liverpool average 60% possession and we have won more league games than them.