How can Luis Guilherme be bad?

[threesixty]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/arti ... 247xjg1y8o

From the BBC article.

Rival fans used to mock Palmeiras' academy, singing that they had never won the Copa Sao Paulo, Brazil's premier youth competition.Those times are long gone.Not only have Palmeiras won the 'Copinha', as the tournament is affectionately known, twice (2022 and 2023), but they have also established themselves as the hottest talent factory in Brazilian football.Over the past few years, the Sao Paulo-based giants have produced and sold stars such as Chelsea-bound Estevao Willian (£29m), Real Madrid's Endrick(£28.5m), West Ham's Luiz Guilherme (£25.5m), Nottingham Forest's Danilo(£16m), and Shakhtar Donetsk's Kevin (£8m, all fees including add-ons).They have all helped Palmeiras cement their status as the most successful Brazilian team of the past decade while generating massive revenue.


This club really fucks things up doesnt it? 

[Fauxstralian]

I don’t have a problem with us picking up players from other teams academies but we aren’t in the position to be paying reasonably large fees for players who aren’t ready now
Feel a bit sorry for the kid. In a foreign country & not being played in under age teams when not in the first team
Not sure what we expect from him when he hasn’t started a game by April bar I think one u23 game
We need a major rebuild & if we could get our money back I’d move him on

[stubbo-admin]

Think he's ok. Should arguably be less ready to make an impact than Scarles. It's only the price tag that's getting in the way (not his fault).

He's just a young kid trying to be a footballer.  Whether the club can afford to take the risk on developing him, versus not taking that gamble and getting money back...who knows.

One assumes he's better than the other wide forwards in the academy, given he's the one getting in the first team squad?!

[Rossal]

Hooked at half time, thought he wasn't any worse than the rest of them but still wasn't great was he. 

That going to be the last we see of him? 

[Manuel]

I was one who said I don't think he will make it, but after seeing him at Chelsea I'm hoping to be proved wrong. He looked hungry, confident and even angry, compare that to say Orford, who has looked like a mascot when he has come on and is a million miles away from being ready, and yes I realise he's further behind than Luis, but even so. You HAVE to have that arrogance about you or you will be killed. I suspect we are going to find out a lot more about his prospects over the coming weeks and what Potter may think of him.

Yep, I agree, he looks like the occassion isn’t too big for him. I liked what I saw from him at Chelsea too. Give him some more playing time and time to settle in and he could turn out to be a nice addition to the squad. Need a better look but there looks like he has some upside. Definitely worth a real opportunity to develop.

Well you called it right on Downes

[Nutsin]

I was one who said I don't think he will make it, but after seeing him at Chelsea I'm hoping to be proved wrong. He looked hungry, confident and even angry, compare that to say Orford, who has looked like a mascot when he has come on and is a million miles away from being ready, and yes I realise he's further behind than Luis, but even so. You HAVE to have that arrogance about you or you will be killed. I suspect we are going to find out a lot more about his prospects over the coming weeks and what Potter may think of him.

Yep, I agree, he looks like the occassion isn’t too big for him. I liked what I saw from him at Chelsea too. Give him some more playing time and time to settle in and he could turn out to be a nice addition to the squad. Need a better look but there looks like he has some upside. Definitely worth a real opportunity to develop.

[Manuel]

I was one who said I don't think he will make it, but after seeing him at Chelsea I'm hoping to be proved wrong. He looked hungry, confident and even angry, compare that to say Orford, who has looked like a mascot when he has come on and is a million miles away from being ready, and yes I realise he's further behind than Luis, but even so. You HAVE to have that arrogance about you or you will be killed. I suspect we are going to find out a lot more about his prospects over the coming weeks and what Potter may think of him.

[El Scorchio]

There were glimmers last night after he came on. Something to work with. 

[LJC]

I’m going to nail my colours to the mast and say he is going to work out and prove it before the end of the season.

[Mad Ferret]

Has this waste of oxygen gone yet?

[southbankbornnbred]

LG turns 19 in a couple of weeks.

He'll soon need some first-team games, at whatever level the club thinks he's at.

It might be a case of Potter having him with the first team for the rest of this season (especially given our injuries) and then either playing him more regularly, or loaning him out, next season.

Could see him going out on loan next season if Potter thinks he's not quite ready.

No idea if it's all going to work out. Hope he turns out to be a star.

[Lee Trundle]

GIVE PEAS A CHANCE

[Texas Iron]

All I am saying…

Is give 
Luis a Chance…

 

[Council Scum]

Two lots of it now seems. 

and the coaches that had us win the FA Youth cup 

 

But LG is in the 1st team. Not the youth team. Also, as a youth team coach wouldn't you want the players you created to get more opportunities than the player imported from overseas on a big transfer?

Would be in your interest to tell everyone he's shit wouldn't it?

It's a massive deal to get your pants pulled down at 25m... doesn't really happen nowadays. It's like property in London. No such thing as a bargain. Just depends on what problem your up for solving.

Yes of course, they'd rather he wasn't in the team and losing games, than in the team and winning them, thank heavens the youth coaches aren't judged on results... 

[Lee Trundle]

Two lots of it now seems. 

and the coaches that had us win the FA Youth cup 

 

But LG is in the 1st team. Not the youth team. Also, as a youth team coach wouldn't you want the players you created to get more opportunities than the player imported from overseas on a big transfer?

Would be in your interest to tell everyone he's shit wouldn't it?

It's a massive deal to get your pants pulled down at 25m... doesn't really happen nowadays. It's like property in London. No such thing as a bargain. Just depends on what problem your up for solving.

He's played for the U21's.

[threesixty]

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

Two lots of it now seems. 

and the coaches that had us win the FA Youth cup 

 

 

But LG is in the 1st team. Not the youth team. Also, as a youth team coach wouldn't you want the players you created to get more opportunities than the player imported from overseas on a big transfer?

Would be in your interest to tell everyone he's shit wouldn't it?

It's a massive deal to get your pants pulled down at 25m... doesn't really happen nowadays. It's like property in London. No such thing as a bargain. Just depends on what problem your up for solving.

[Massive Attack]

Rio Ferdinand had been at the club for over a year when he made his first team debut… off the bench… at 18 years old.

It was the last game of the season. What the hell was he doing in training all season?

Fuck me I feel old, I remember that sat up in the old West Stand upper that day as he came on as a Sub against Sheffield Weds..

Where were we? Oh yeah, Guilherme OUT!

[Mad Ferret]

Christ, what a boring ass discussion this has been.

[Gank]

Rio Ferdinand had been at the club for over a year when he made his first team debut… off the bench… at 18 years old.

It was the last game of the season. What the hell was he doing in training all season?

[El Scorchio]

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

 

That's a really unfair comparison IMO. Rice had been comfortably in the PL academy system half his life, settled in London etc etc.and was clearly an immense talent even at that age plus he's literally the exception to the rule as far as young players develop and turn out. We only got him because Chelsea are idiots. Let's not forget they rejected even him (along with KDB and Salah) so it's absolutely not an exact science. We were all really excited about Reece Oxford who came through the academy, played at a really young age and then went on to be a horrendous flop.

Whereas this kid has just been dropped into the first team squad of a club in utter turnmoil in a totally different country and culture where the chairman has sacked a shithouse manager he insisted on, who obviously had no clue what to do with the player, after six months, openly scapegoated his own technical director and used the player as a stick to beat said technical director with. He's barely had time to settle in London. Give the poor fucker a chance he's just being used as a political pawn more than a football player at this point. Judge him in 18 months.

 

It depends how you spin it. Guilherme has far more first team games under his belt than Rice had when they both made their prem debuts. For £25M as a 18 year old from Brazil you would also expect to class him as a 'exceptional talent'.  

All the chairmen and turmoil shit is just noise, got nothing to do with how he performs in training. 

Anyway we've detracted from the reason why Rice was brought up and it was that they both made their debut at 18 and Guilherme could go on to be just as good and just as valuable. For me at the moment thats miles off. 

 

 

it does yeah. I and others are probably spinning it a little positively and others are spinning it negatively. The truth will likely be somewhere inbetween. The turnmoil shit is absolutely not noise. Of course it's going to affect a young lad who has come over on his own and barely knows anything. Sees his teammates square up to the manager who most of them appeared to be in open revolt with? None of the players have been put in any sort of place to perform well- and they haven't. Just like him, if the insistence is that he's not.

Of course Guilherme doesn't look as good as Rice at the moment for several valid reasons. And as mentioned Rice is the absolute gold standard for a player that age. It's not normal. We all knew already he was a special player. It would be much fairer to compare to numerous other 18 year olds who have played for us in the last decade as well rather than just the one generational one he and everyone else are always going to look bad in comparison to if that's the ridiculously high benchmark.

As you say he could go on to be as good or close to it, but we have to give time rather than just judge now. And it's worth pointing out that footballers don't all develop at the same rate.

[Massive Attack]

Tim Steidten right now..

[Rossal]

They’re both older than him and have been here years.

 

So what? They started the season in the U23's and their performances on and off the pitch have progressed them above Guilherme this season. His performances in training haven't even got him on the bench start of the season and then has only got off it what 5 times when in the squad?.

 

So what? Well, apart from that Guilherme has played more than Orford this season anyway, what I’m saying is that if these older players were better than Guilherme they wouldn’t be in the U21s or the U23 competitions. And they’re the two standouts, what about the other players in that squad? By your logic, none of them are good enough, especially those older than the Brazilian, so what’s the point in having an academy?

you do interpret what I am saying and go off on a right tangent. When have I said scrap the academy?  I am saying that Scarles and Orford have done better this season than Guilherme.  There is little to no evidence to suggest he has been doing well from a footballing point of view and for £25M that is very very disappointing. 

Like it or not the price tag indicates a high level of ability, but there is no evidence to show this so far. 

[Rossal]

 

Declan Rice was signed for £0 and made his senior debut in 2017 when he was 18 years old. He went on to be sold for £100 million.

Luis Guilherme was signed for £25 million and made his senior debut in 2024 when he was 18 years old.

The chances of him becoming an £80 million player are higher than every single other teenaged player at West Ham.

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

 

That's a really unfair comparison IMO. Rice had been comfortably in the PL academy system half his life, settled in London etc etc.and was clearly an immense talent even at that age plus he's literally the exception to the rule as far as young players develop and turn out. We only got him because Chelsea are idiots. Let's not forget they rejected even him (along with KDB and Salah) so it's absolutely not an exact science. We were all really excited about Reece Oxford who came through the academy, played at a really young age and then went on to be a horrendous flop.

Whereas this kid has just been dropped into the first team squad of a club in utter turnmoil in a totally different country and culture where the chairman has sacked a shithouse manager he insisted on, who obviously had no clue what to do with the player, after six months, openly scapegoated his own technical director and used the player as a stick to beat said technical director with. He's barely had time to settle in London. Give the poor fucker a chance he's just being used as a political pawn more than a football player at this point. Judge him in 18 months.

 

 

It depends how you spin it. Guilherme has far more first team games under his belt than Rice had when they both made their prem debuts. For £25M as a 18 year old from Brazil you would also expect to class him as a 'exceptional talent'.  

All the chairmen and turmoil shit is just noise, got nothing to do with how he performs in training. 

Anyway we've detracted from the reason why Rice was brought up and it was that they both made their debut at 18 and Guilherme could go on to be just as good and just as valuable. For me at the moment thats miles off. 

[El Scorchio]

 

Caicedo cost Brighton max £4.5M with no intention to play him regularly in the 1st Team initially and loaned him out to Beershot. 

Cucurella was 23yo when he went to Brighton for £15M already as an established 1st Team footballer in La Liga. 

Macallister cost Brighton £7million and wanted the 20-year-old to stay in Argentina on loan at his Club until the Summer with Argentina Juniors in the top Argentian League. 

They're not the same deals as West Ham did with Guilherme. 

 

According to transfermrkt he cost them 25 million. And if that's with all add ons then you have to give the same grace to the LG fee which wouldn't be 25 million either.
We have no intention of playing LG either, just like Caicedo at first. Difference is we've not sent him out on loan. If that's a fault it's with us as a club rather than the player.

 

I could only find Caicedo going to Brighton for around £4M..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.skys ... adline-day

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... 894269.amp

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/465539 ... -brighton/

Feb 2021
https://www.transfermarkt.com/moises-ca ... ler/687626

https://www.footballtransfers.com/en/pl ... er-history

[Gank]

They’re both older than him and have been here years.

 

So what? They started the season in the U23's and their performances on and off the pitch have progressed them above Guilherme this season. His performances in training haven't even got him on the bench start of the season and then has only got off it what 5 times when in the squad?.

 

 

So what? Well, apart from that Guilherme has played more than Orford this season anyway, what I’m saying is that if these older players were better than Guilherme they wouldn’t be in the U21s or the U23 competitions. And they’re the two standouts, what about the other players in that squad? By your logic, none of them are good enough, especially those older than the Brazilian, so what’s the point in having an academy?

[Rossal]

No he didn’t. He didn’t just play one game and then start every match in his first season.

 

He made his debut the final game of one season......the following season he made 26 appearances including 15 starts. Your boy would have to start every game left this season to better that. 

 

 

So he made 15 starts over two seasons despite already having been here for 4 years. Couldn’t have impressed much in training up to that point!

Ha leave off, clutching at straws at best here