The Official Politics Thread (enter at your own risk)

[Come On You Irons]

There. Resident WHO political commentators and gurus can knock yourselves out in here and conduct your endless bickering. All other threads will be locked.

[ironsofcanada]

It's a juxtaposition his supporters seem happy to hold, I guess it's all they can do if they refuse to be critical of anything he does, not that I'm saying you're a trump supporter, I'm not sure what you are, the ultimate devils advocate maybe 

 

 

I am not a devil's advocate.

I have a strong principles but through experience (some of it in the world of politics) I know that going all or nothing for your principles, means you often get nothing. Which hurts people.

Nothing is perfect, perfectly good or bad.  Same with people.  So the second you start believing that you have a huge issue.

Unfortunately, and I am honest when I say that, this is the best deal available for the most people involved. We can argue that for sure.

But hero-worshipping either Zelensky or Trump is not the way to argue that. It's fundamentally flawed  So I asked to look at the actual things that were said and done.

[Mr Anon]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

https://www.project2025.observer/?sort=status-asc

He's all over the place on birds. Recently he was pushing for the removal of wind turbines, partly on the grounds that they murder birds. But I would guess you are a supporter of wind turbines, you runny egg yolk freak of nature.

Oh I think we all know his faux concern for the birds was thrown in there, he has a real issue with any attempt at renewable energy, he lives for the black stuff! 

And ps I'm no fan of wind turbines to be honest, they're not the best solution, you hard boiled yolk enjoying oddity of humanity 

​​​​

[ironsofcanada]

He's all over the place on birds. Recently he was pushing for the removal of wind turbines, partly on the grounds that they murder birds. But I would guess you are a supporter of wind turbines, you runny egg yolk freak of nature.

I wish we had a laugh reaction instead of just a thumbs up. 


That should have been a bullet point in Project 2025, in my esteemed opinion. 

[Hammer I am]

For someone earlier preaching respect in a debate you're very quick to sling veiled insults 

I am sorry but actually they were not veiled at all.  

I did call you a sucker if you believe everything  Trump says.  Sometimes harsh language is needed I guess.

I see you and others as the inverse of true MAGA.  You believe everything Trump says, you just think it's all bad while they think it's all good. 

But again sorry, I will agree to dial it back and discuss specifics of what both Zelensky and Trump/Vance said, like I originally asked.

 

 

I guess we have reached an impasse then, as honestly I think you're too quick to forgive and disregard Trump's more unhinged statements behind a blanket of "that's just what Trump does, if you believe that you'll believe anything" while simultaneously stating he says it like it is, straight talking guy, delivers what he promises etc etc. 

It's a juxtaposition his supporters seem happy to hold, I guess it's all they can do if they refuse to be critical of anything he does, not that I'm saying you're a trump supporter, I'm not sure what you are, the ultimate devils advocate maybe 

[Nurse Ratched]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

https://www.project2025.observer/?sort=status-asc

He's all over the place on birds. Recently he was pushing for the removal of wind turbines, partly on the grounds that they murder birds. But I would guess you are a supporter of wind turbines, you runny egg yolk freak of nature.

[ironsofcanada]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

The current discussion not important enough that we need to go back to debunked Project 2025 links?

People who want their political opinions taken seriously have a strange way of doing it.

[Mr Anon]

If you want a fun read have a look at trump's 2025 roadmap and filter by not completed 

My favourites so far

"Weaken regulations on baby formula"

"Repeal the federal mandate to label genetically engineered food."

"Lessen regulations that protect marine life"

.""End congressional review of arms transfers to foreign countries."

"Reverse Biden-era decisions to retire parts of nuclear arsenal, reject Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty."

"Rescind guidance that requires hospitals to perform an abortion to save a woman's life"

"Let companies stop paying overtime and allow states to opt out of federal overtime and minimum wage laws"

"Lessen child labor regulations to allow "teenage workers" to work "inherently dangerous jobs"."

"Reinstate Trump's Migratory Bird Treaty Act (companies will not be punished for killing migratory birds)."

Reads like a Bond villain s wishlist he's going after the BIRDS Nurse!

https://www.project2025.observer/?sort=status-asc

[ironsofcanada]

For someone earlier preaching respect in a debate you're very quick to sling veiled insults 

I am sorry but actually they were not veiled at all.  

I did call you a sucker if you believe everything  Trump says.  Sometimes harsh language is needed I guess.

I see you and others as the inverse of true MAGA.  You believe everything Trump says, you just think it's all bad while they think it's all good. 

But again sorry, I will agree to dial it back and discuss specifics of what both Zelensky and Trump/Vance said, like I originally asked.

[Hammer I am]

For someone earlier preaching respect in a debate you're very quick to sling veiled insults 

[ironsofcanada]

 

"This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics,"

You really do yourself no favours with comments like this. Most of us believe it or not have some knowledge of the world and politics, you're not special in that regard.

Do you think that Zelensky should sign that deal with no US security guarantee, in good faith Putin will keep his word, yes or no?

You honestly prove that we all don't have an equal understanding of politics, with your last naive sentence.

[ironsofcanada]

The plan most likely to get him to sign away half his country's mineral wealth and let Putin have whatever he wants in return, toys were thrown out the pram when they were incredulous Zelensky wouldn't sign without protection as he "didn't hold any cards"

This is a man that wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine and turn into into a holiday resort, is he stupid enough to believe they would just up and leave willingly? you'd have to be a very special level if guillable to believe he'd do Ukrainian natives any favours at this point 

 

 

You make zero sense in reality.

The mineral wealth is not hoovered up in a second and you are done. You are putting American assets (and people) in the country to use it on an ongoing basis.  Do you honestly think that if Russia invades again in that scenario, American doesn't want to protect it's investment? That's your security. Always has been the deal and the argument.  As Secretary Bessent has said, "To show Russia, no daylight between Ukraine and the States." Zelensky ruined that at least temporarily. 

The surprise and reaction came when it felt like Zelensky was trying change or even scupper the deal live on TV.

If you think Palestine is happening, I will sell you my American (it will be annexed by then, of course) house for a real good price.  ie. You are a sucker, who apparently believes everything politicians say.

It's what Trump does, say big flashy things off his noggin, sometimes to get people like you to freak, while he works to get parts of the deal he actually wants. 

[Hammer I am]

Of course. There isn't a person alive who doesn't think Trump is a cսnt, that includes himself and all his supporters, etc. It's as black and white as anything there has ever been. Funny old game.

 

Unfortunately that is not true in the slightest. 
There are dyed-in-the-wool MAGA out there that love him as a person and believe he can do not wrong, of course.

Also unfortunately as well,  there are the inverse, those that believe he can do no right.

This also created unrealistic adulation of his opposition, which has it's own problems. Why would Harris be a serious candidate, when do you cover up Biden's decline as long as was done?

Look at Hammer I Am's post down the thread about Zelensky comparing him to Trump.
He thinks he's got " A little glimpse into the soul of each of them." because of PR stunts by both.
  
Now, rational adults know that in the real world, being a good person does not alway equal good results, and, realistically, the inverse is true.

I learned very early in my political awareness - first Bill Clinton era then actually working with politicians - that you can't have heroes of character in this business.  There are some trying to be good people but you ultimately have to vote and support people who you thing will to do the best thing for your town, council etc. up to the world, if you choose to look that far.


My comments on here come from the believe that the best, not perfect, action in this moment is the one Trump is pushing.  This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics, generally, but also from talking with an Ukrainian semi-refugee (she came for school before the last invasion but could not go back or see her parents for a long while) who is now married to my nephew. 

"This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics,"

You really do yourself no favours with comments like this. Most of us believe it or not have some knowledge of the world and politics, you're not special in that regard.

Do you think that Zelensky should sign that deal with no US security guarantee, in good faith Putin will keep his word, yes or no?

[ironsofcanada]

Of course. There isn't a person alive who doesn't think Trump is a cսnt, that includes himself and all his supporters, etc. It's as black and white as anything there has ever been. Funny old game.

 

 

Unfortunately that is not true in the slightest. 
There are dyed-in-the-wool MAGA out there that love him as a person and believe he can do not wrong, of course.

Also unfortunately as well,  there are the inverse, those that believe he can do no right.

This also created unrealistic adulation of his opposition, which has it's own problems. Why would Harris be a serious candidate, when do you cover up Biden's decline as long as was done?

Look at Hammer I Am's post down the thread about Zelensky comparing him to Trump.
He thinks he's got " A little glimpse into the soul of each of them." because of PR stunts by both.
  
Now, rational adults know that in the real world, being a good person does not alway equal good results, and, realistically, the inverse is true.

I learned very early in my political awareness - first Bill Clinton era then actually working with politicians - that you can't have heroes of character in this business.  There are some trying to be good people but you ultimately have to vote and support people who you thing will to do the best thing for your town, council etc. up to the world, if you choose to look that far.


My comments on here come from the believe that the best, not perfect, action in this moment is the one Trump is pushing.  This comes from some knowledge of the world and politics, generally, but also from talking with an Ukrainian semi-refugee (she came for school before the last invasion but could not go back or see her parents for a long while) who is now married to my nephew. 

[Hammer I am]

What a shit show from start to finish this has been.

Trump knew what he was doing from the start. Making stupid comments in front of the press about Zelensky not wearing a suit as soon as he opened the car door. He knew he wouldn’t be wearing one. He never has done before. All rehearsed.

the toys really started being thrown out the pram once Trump knew he wasn’t going to get that mineral deal signed without some assurances on security. So, they squeeze Zelensky in front of the world media for everyone to see. JD Vance the cocksucking puppet added in for good measure.

Putin just has to sit back and let it all unfold. None of his hand has been revealed. He already knows that Ukraine won’t be joining NATO nor will the US be offering security (for now) because Trump can’t keep his mouth shut. Zelensky has even less to offer at the table when it comes to trying to secure the peace he wants. A peace with security is a must because Putin simply cannot be trusted. 

im not surprised Putin and Trump get on with each other. Both a pair of narcissistic cunts.

Interesting read to say the least.
 
It was all planned but also as part of that plan they started throwing toys out of the pram?

What was specific moment the toy throwing began for you?

The plan most likely to get him to sign away half his country's mineral wealth and let Putin have whatever he wants in return, toys were thrown out the pram when they were incredulous Zelensky wouldn't sign without protection as he "didn't hold any cards"

This is a man that wants to ethnically cleanse Palestine and turn into into a holiday resort, is he stupid enough to believe they would just up and leave willingly? you'd have to be a very special level if guillable to believe he'd do Ukrainian natives any favours at this point 

[Hammer I am]

I did! In the last paragraph, you know the bit you cut out of the quote on your earlier post. 

I still found those very general.

The suit thing could mean a number of different exchanges What specifically? In general, you can go 2 sides on the that. 

No I wouldn't myself poke fun at it like Trump did. That's not helpful.

But Zelensky is not a general, never been in the military, is in fact conscripting  young people in the military (and keeping certain classes of people in country like my nephew's in-laws).  So is the non-suit in a diplomatic situation is maybe not a great look? 

He wants the folk hero look and it works with you, obviously but if people's lives are on the line maybe make an exception.


There was a whole lot of hating Putin going on. And as Trump said "Understandable".  But again specifics, mate. 

But generally, do you accept that if Trump needs to make a lasting cease fire with 2 parties, he needs to downplay that? Just practical and if you are the leader of country that needs peace, you hold that hatred in for  an hour or so?

For me a switch was flicked when Zelensky said "J.D."  - not Mr Vice President or even Mr. Vance "...what kind of diplomacy?" Again a little thing like suit the (from either side).  

But the disrespect was not one-sided I guess. 

We can go on.. 

But you had a side before this, and you found what you wanted.  

I didn't have a side before this, I actually found it funny when Trump won with all the crying going in, I'm not laughing now.

Bottom line in all of this Zelensky woul have made a deal on the condition the US guaranteed their security, absolutely pointless for him to agree anything less considering Putin's previous habit of breaking cease-fires, that should have been very easy for US to agree as they would be protecting their own interest in doing so, I wonder why the deal couldn't be agreed. Trump expected him to sigh away half his country's mineral wealth and offer nothing in return in terms of protection, Zelensky would have been mad to agree to that, he must likely suspects Trump has already agreed with Putin to share a lot of their wealth. Look at his plan for Gaza, does that not give you a hint at the measure of the man in terms of self interest?? 

[ironsofcanada]

What a shit show from start to finish this has been.

Trump knew what he was doing from the start. Making stupid comments in front of the press about Zelensky not wearing a suit as soon as he opened the car door. He knew he wouldn’t be wearing one. He never has done before. All rehearsed.

the toys really started being thrown out the pram once Trump knew he wasn’t going to get that mineral deal signed without some assurances on security. So, they squeeze Zelensky in front of the world media for everyone to see. JD Vance the cocksucking puppet added in for good measure.

Putin just has to sit back and let it all unfold. None of his hand has been revealed. He already knows that Ukraine won’t be joining NATO nor will the US be offering security (for now) because Trump can’t keep his mouth shut. Zelensky has even less to offer at the table when it comes to trying to secure the peace he wants. A peace with security is a must because Putin simply cannot be trusted. 

im not surprised Putin and Trump get on with each other. Both a pair of narcissistic cunts.

Interesting read to say the least.
 
It was all planned but also as part of that plan they started throwing toys out of the pram?

What was specific moment the toy throwing began for you?

[Manuel]

im not surprised Putin and Trump get on with each other. Both a pair of narcissistic cunts.

Of course. There isn't a person alive who doesn't think Trump is a cսnt, that includes himself and all his supporters, etc. It's as black and white as anything there has ever been. Funny old game.

[dealcanvey]

What a shit show from start to finish this has been.

Trump knew what he was doing from the start. Making stupid comments in front of the press about Zelensky not wearing a suit as soon as he opened the car door. He knew he wouldn’t be wearing one. He never has done before. All rehearsed.

the toys really started being thrown out the pram once Trump knew he wasn’t going to get that mineral deal signed without some assurances on security. So, they squeeze Zelensky in front of the world media for everyone to see. JD Vance the cocksucking puppet added in for good measure.

Putin just has to sit back and let it all unfold. None of his hand has been revealed. He already knows that Ukraine won’t be joining NATO nor will the US be offering security (for now) because Trump can’t keep his mouth shut. Zelensky has even less to offer at the table when it comes to trying to secure the peace he wants. A peace with security is a must because Putin simply cannot be trusted. 

im not surprised Putin and Trump get on with each other. Both a pair of narcissistic cunts.

[Monsieur merde de cheval]

I did! In the last paragraph, you know the bit you cut out of the quote on your earlier post. 

I still found those very general.

The suit thing could mean a number of different exchanges What specifically? In general, you can go 2 sides on the that. 

No I wouldn't myself poke fun at it like Trump did. That's not helpful.

But Zelensky is not a general, never been in the military, is in fact conscripting  young people in the military (and keeping certain classes of people in country like my nephew's in-laws).  So is the non-suit in a diplomatic situation is maybe not a great look? 

He wants the folk hero look and it works with you, obviously but if people's lives are on the line maybe make an exception.


There was a whole lot of hating Putin going on. And as Trump said "Understandable".  But again specifics, mate. 

But generally, do you accept that if Trump needs to make a lasting cease fire with 2 parties, he needs to downplay that? Just practical and if you are the leader of country that needs peace, you hold that hatred in for  an hour or so?

For me a switch was flicked when Zelensky said "J.D."  - not Mr Vice President or even Mr. Vance "...what kind of diplomacy?" Again a little thing like suit the (from either side).  

But the disrespect was not one-sided I guess. 

We can go on.. 

But you had a side before this, and you found what you wanted.  

President Trump should decline ..(politely) the state  visit invitation from our current Monarch.

Our current Monarch is not worthy ...I say that with a very heavy heart..he's a weak man 

Quandary...
Serving soldiers take the oath and are therefore (by law )  honour bound to fulfill their duty ..

[Monsieur merde de cheval]

Quote :
wonder how many Trump supporters have gone the other way, plenty of his base seem embarrassed by it unquote:

keep dreaming numbnuts

[Monsieur merde de cheval]

Quote.."Trump  is part of what is threatening my country with economic disaster" .. unquote 

No you fanny.
..it's who's been running your country through it's most self destructive period in your history that is to blame...

I certainly will partially agree with the last bit, which is why I said "part". 

But as I was telling that Hammer there, I am not a devotee of any one side and I call 'em  like I sees 'em.  More than one thing can lose you a football game. (To mix some sport terms) 

Trump is doing what he thinks is best for his country  and his legacy but certainly in the current situation that is not the best thing for mine.  

If you were Canadian I would tell you to that worrying about Trump is pretty pointless, he going to try what he tries, and focus  on  our lack of functional government and the annointment of our new Prime Minister . But I assume you are not. 

Trump is not the Canadian peoples enemy...it's who has and still is  RUNNING THE SHOW  in your vast and wonderful country.
Sorry for calling you a fanny...just a figure a speech..

[ironsofcanada]

Quote.."Trump  is part of what is threatening my country with economic disaster" .. unquote 

No you fanny.
..it's who's been running your country through it's most self destructive period in your history that is to blame...

I certainly will partially agree with the last bit, which is why I said "part". 

But as I was telling that Hammer there, I am not a devotee of any one side and I call 'em  like I sees 'em.  More than one thing can lose you a football game. (To mix some sport terms) 

Trump is doing what he thinks is best for his country  and his legacy but certainly in the current situation that is not the best thing for mine.  

If you were Canadian I would tell you to that worrying about Trump is pretty pointless, he going to try what he tries, and focus  on  our lack of functional government and the annointment of our new Prime Minister . But I assume you are not. 

[Monsieur merde de cheval]

 

Then hold an election. Or even say you would set down to make peace. Don't be so naive.


Zelensky's got you, hook line and sink

Just substitute Trump for Zelensky in your last paragraph and you've just explained yourself perfectly.

Which people has a lost specifically then? Let's see these examples, 

Mate,
Trump  is part of what is threatening my country with economic disaster, I don't like him at all.  I am just a realist that isn't locked into one side and goes with the evidence of what actually happened.

People shifting - Lindsey Graham, but more generally look up the polling places like CNN did on Zelensky post meeting.


I'm sorry a general point like, - Trump and Vance did bad things - and - Zelensky didn't deserve it, is the opposite of specifics.
Tell me specifically what was said or done. And we can discuss it.

Quote.."Trump  is part of what is threatening my country with economic disaster" .. unquote 

No you fanny.
..it's who's been running your country through it's most self destructive period in your history that is to blame...

[Monsieur merde de cheval]

 

Then hold an election. Or even say you would set down to make peace. Don't be so naive.


Zelensky's got you, hook line and sink

Just substitute Trump for Zelensky in your last paragraph and you've just explained yourself perfectly.

Which people has a lost specifically then? Let's see these examples, 

Mate,
Trump  is part of what is threatening my country with economic disaster, I don't like him at all.  I am just a realist that isn't locked into one side and goes with the evidence of what actually happened.

People shifting - Lindsey Graham, but more generally look up the polling places like CNN did on Zelensky post meeting.


I'm sorry a general point like, - Trump and Vance did bad things - and - Zelensky didn't deserve it, is the opposite of specifics.
Tell me specifically what was said or done. And we can discuss it.

Id say TRUDIE and his ilk are YOUR PROBLEM.
Upto yous to sort yourselves out

[Monsieur merde de cheval]

Britain First will pass a strict law that anyone who speaks out in favour of any war must enlist and serve on the frontline in that war. It’s the only way to curtail warmongering.



 

The ones  that have no fear of treading into hell  are  ALWAYS  the ones that have no fear in starting one.
and it's ALWAYS the despised working class that suffer the most.
I despise the vermin like the future President Bill Clinton ..who used his college status and family money to dodge the draft to VIETNAM..as did  THOUSANDS OF HIS ILK..

As the yanks say...FUBAR