How can Luis Guilherme be bad?

[threesixty]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/arti ... 247xjg1y8o

From the BBC article.

Rival fans used to mock Palmeiras' academy, singing that they had never won the Copa Sao Paulo, Brazil's premier youth competition.Those times are long gone.Not only have Palmeiras won the 'Copinha', as the tournament is affectionately known, twice (2022 and 2023), but they have also established themselves as the hottest talent factory in Brazilian football.Over the past few years, the Sao Paulo-based giants have produced and sold stars such as Chelsea-bound Estevao Willian (£29m), Real Madrid's Endrick(£28.5m), West Ham's Luiz Guilherme (£25.5m), Nottingham Forest's Danilo(£16m), and Shakhtar Donetsk's Kevin (£8m, all fees including add-ons).They have all helped Palmeiras cement their status as the most successful Brazilian team of the past decade while generating massive revenue.


This club really fucks things up doesnt it? 

[El Scorchio]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

Declan Rice was signed for £0 and made his senior debut in 2017 when he was 18 years old. He went on to be sold for £100 million.

Luis Guilherme was signed for £25 million and made his senior debut in 2024 when he was 18 years old.

The chances of him becoming an £80 million player are higher than every single other teenaged player at West Ham.

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

 

 

That's a really unfair comparison IMO. Rice had been comfortably in the PL academy system half his life, settled in London etc etc.and was clearly an immense talent even at that age plus he's literally the exception to the rule and absolute ceiling as far as young players develop and turn out. We only got him because Chelsea are idiots. Let's not forget they rejected even him (along with KDB and Salah) so it's absolutely not an exact science. We were all really excited about Reece Oxford who came through the academy, played at a really young age and then went on to be a horrendous flop.

Whereas this kid has just been dropped into the first team squad of a club in utter turnmoil in a totally different country and culture where the chairman has sacked a shithouse manager he insisted on, who obviously had no clue what to do with the player, after six months, openly scapegoated his own technical director and used the player as a stick to beat said technical director with. He's barely had time to settle in London. Give the poor fucker a chance he's just being used as a political pawn more than a football player at this point. Judge him in 18 months.

[Gank]

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

No he didn’t. He didn’t just play one game and then start every match in his first season.

 

He made his debut the final game of one season......the following season he made 26 appearances including 15 starts. Your boy would have to start every game left this season to better that. 

 

 

 

 

So he made 15 starts over two seasons despite already having been here for 4 years. Couldn’t have impressed much in training up to that point!

[Massive Attack]

 

According to transfermrkt he cost them 25 million. And if that's with all add ons then you have to give the same grace to the LG fee which wouldn't be 25 million either.
We have no intention of playing LG either, just like Caicedo at first. Difference is we've not sent him out on loan. If that's a fault it's with us as a club rather than the player.

 

I could only find Caicedo going to Brighton for around £4M..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.skys ... adline-day

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... 894269.amp

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/465539 ... -brighton/

Could have been a sell on percentage fee when he went to Chelsea which would then be added to the initial 4 million.

I don’t know, just a guess.

 

 

Possibly but then that's not the same deal as Guilherme. 

[Rossal]

They’re both older than him and have been here years.

 

 

So what? They started the season in the U23's and their performances on and off the pitch have progressed them above Guilherme this season. His performances in training haven't even got him on the bench start of the season and then has only got off it what 5 times when in the squad?.

[Gank]

 

Caicedo cost Brighton max £4.5M with no intention to play him regularly in the 1st Team initially and loaned him out to Beershot. 

Cucurella was 23yo when he went to Brighton for £15M already as an established 1st Team footballer in La Liga. 

Macallister cost Brighton £7million and wanted the 20-year-old to stay in Argentina on loan at his Club until the Summer with Argentina Juniors in the top Argentian League. 

They're not the same deals as West Ham did with Guilherme. 

 

According to transfermrkt he cost them 25 million. And if that's with all add ons then you have to give the same grace to the LG fee which wouldn't be 25 million either.
We have no intention of playing LG either, just like Caicedo at first. Difference is we've not sent him out on loan. If that's a fault it's with us as a club rather than the player.

 

I could only find Caicedo going to Brighton for around £4M..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.skys ... adline-day

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... 894269.amp

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/465539 ... -brighton/

Could have been a sell on percentage fee when he went to Chelsea which would then be added to the initial 4 million.

I don’t know, just a guess.

[scott_d]

I agree with the logic and I would like to have seen him more too.

I just think that we could make many assumptions that are miles from the truth, without knowing why he's not played.  He could have been dealing with some personal issues, he could be struggling with the language, he could have had a few knocks he's been dealing with... or he could just not be pulling up any trees in training.

I prefer to give him the benefit of doubt.

But everyone is free draw their own conclusions.
 

[Rossal]

 

Declan Rice was signed for £0 and made his senior debut in 2017 when he was 18 years old. He went on to be sold for £100 million.

Luis Guilherme was signed for £25 million and made his senior debut in 2024 when he was 18 years old.

The chances of him becoming an £80 million player are higher than every single other teenaged player at West Ham.

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

No he didn’t. He didn’t just play one game and then start every match in his first season.

 

 

He made his debut the final game of one season......the following season he made 26 appearances including 15 starts. Your boy would have to start every game left this season to better that. 

[Massive Attack]

 

That is the Brighton model that everyone raves about and says we should aspire to, though. They aren't finding all their youngsters for peanuts like Mitoma. They spent over 50 million on MacAllister, Cucurella and Caicedo with no guarantee of a decent return. Difference is they had this consistent long term strategy, invested in it wisely both financially and with diligent research and importantly believed in and stuck to it. Whereas we invest in one player of that type and because he's not banging in goals within months, Sullivan shits the bed, abandons the strategy and starts lashing out at the bloke he employed to carry out said strategy, while at the same time not coughing up the fee for Duran (Who TS wanted? let's not forget if we'd got him there would be no Fullkrug) and authorising 40 million quid that could have landed Duran to be spent on Kilman, who has absolutely fuck all resale value. Even AWB who has been an OK buy so far is 27, so we won't get anything out of him either.

It's a fucking mess. We are an absolute jekyll and hyde of a club in terms of recruitment, lurching from one bit of short term thinking to fix an immediate problem which lands us in trouble 18 months down the line and spending a load more to fix the problem the last bit of short term thinking landed us in. It needs a true clean slate which supposedly was why TS was brought in but then Sullivan has worked to scupper all that.

 

Caicedo cost Brighton max £4.5M with no intention to play him regularly in the 1st Team initially and loaned him out to Beershot. 

Cucurella was 23yo when he went to Brighton for £15M already as an established 1st Team footballer in La Liga. 

Macallister cost Brighton £7million and wanted the 20-year-old to stay in Argentina on loan at his Club until the Summer with Argentina Juniors in the top Argentian League. 

They're not the same deals as West Ham did with Guilherme. 

 

According to transfermrkt he cost them 25 million. And if that's with all add ons then you have to give the same grace to the LG fee which wouldn't be 25 million either.
We have no intention of playing LG either, just like Caicedo at first. Difference is we've not sent him out on loan. If that's a fault it's with us as a club rather than the player.

 

 

I could only find Caicedo going to Brighton for around £4M..

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.skys ... adline-day

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc. ... 894269.amp

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/465539 ... -brighton/

[Gank]

They’re both older than him and have been here years.

[Rossal]

Rossal, you are making a judgement on an assumption that if he was good enough he should be playing, rather than actually giving him a proper chance to prove that he is or isn't good enough.

All the players got a clean slate when Potter came in but no doubt he wants to see how the senior players perform.  But even then he's given more game time to youth players than Lopetegui did in his six months at the club.  For me that suggests we will see more of Guilherme but if by the end of the season he is still limited to a few minutes here and there, then that is obviously more telling than his first 6 months at the club.  Although I still wouldn't write him off at 19 either.

Yep hope you are right, but he took Kudus off a the weekend and moved Paqueta out there. Another opportunity for him missed. 

 

Whilst what you say is 100% fact, it’s not a reflection on a Brazilian U18 player that a full Brazilian senior current international is favoured over him

 

 

No but after playing Scarles and Orford.....you would think when chasing a goal he would also use Guilherme if he has been impressed with him as much as the other two. 

He turned to two lads in the youth team weeks ago over the first team wonderkid. 

[Gank]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

Declan Rice was signed for £0 and made his senior debut in 2017 when he was 18 years old. He went on to be sold for £100 million.

Luis Guilherme was signed for £25 million and made his senior debut in 2024 when he was 18 years old.

The chances of him becoming an £80 million player are higher than every single other teenaged player at West Ham.

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

No he didn’t. He didn’t just play one game and then start every match in his first season.

[Gank]

Rossal, you are making a judgement on an assumption that if he was good enough he should be playing, rather than actually giving him a proper chance to prove that he is or isn't good enough.

All the players got a clean slate when Potter came in but no doubt he wants to see how the senior players perform.  But even then he's given more game time to youth players than Lopetegui did in his six months at the club.  For me that suggests we will see more of Guilherme but if by the end of the season he is still limited to a few minutes here and there, then that is obviously more telling than his first 6 months at the club.  Although I still wouldn't write him off at 19 either.

Yep hope you are right, but he took Kudus off a the weekend and moved Paqueta out there. Another opportunity for him missed. 

 

 

Whilst what you say is 100% fact, it’s not a reflection on a Brazilian U18 player that a full Brazilian senior current international is favoured over him

[Rossal]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

Declan Rice was signed for £0 and made his senior debut in 2017 when he was 18 years old. He went on to be sold for £100 million.

Luis Guilherme was signed for £25 million and made his senior debut in 2024 when he was 18 years old.

The chances of him becoming an £80 million player are higher than every single other teenaged player at West Ham.

Rice got in the team and stayed there at 18

Guilherme can't even get off the bench, that's the difference

[Rossal]

Rossal, you are making a judgement on an assumption that if he was good enough he should be playing, rather than actually giving him a proper chance to prove that he is or isn't good enough.

All the players got a clean slate when Potter came in but no doubt he wants to see how the senior players perform.  But even then he's given more game time to youth players than Lopetegui did in his six months at the club.  For me that suggests we will see more of Guilherme but if by the end of the season he is still limited to a few minutes here and there, then that is obviously more telling than his first 6 months at the club.  Although I still wouldn't write him off at 19 either.

Yep hope you are right, but he took Kudus off a the weekend and moved Paqueta out there. Another opportunity for him missed. 

[Massive Attack]

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

Two lots of it now seems. 

and the coaches that had us win the FA Youth cup 

Good point. That's 3..

[Council Scum]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

Two lots of it now seems. 

and the coaches that had us win the FA Youth cup 

[scott_d]

Rossal, you are making a judgement on an assumption that if he was good enough he should be playing, rather than actually giving him a proper chance to prove that he is or isn't good enough.

All the players got a clean slate when Potter came in but no doubt he wants to see how the senior players perform.  But even then he's given more game time to youth players than Lopetegui did in his six months at the club.  For me that suggests we will see more of Guilherme but if by the end of the season he is still limited to a few minutes here and there, then that is obviously more telling than his first 6 months at the club.  Although I still wouldn't write him off at 19 either.

[Rossal]

The plan would have been come in and develop.......impress and you'll get chances in the first team. 

Now its either Jlop being shit or he hasn't impressed. 

He wasn't even making the bench start of the season after having a long pre season with us. 

Guess will have to see next 4/5 games if Potter agrees with Jlop or not 

[Council Scum]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

 

Which coaching staff? the ones that have us at 14th? The ones that have seen us ship 74 goals last season or the ones that have seen us have one of the highest goals against in the leagues?

Or the ones that get Danny Ings scoring? or the ones that have taught Kudus how to pass effectively and not dribble into 3 players EVERY time he gets the ball.

That coaching staff?

 

 

And rate them above him, so there you go. 

[Gank]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

 

Declan Rice was signed for £0 and made his senior debut in 2017 when he was 18 years old. He went on to be sold for £100 million.

Luis Guilherme was signed for £25 million and made his senior debut in 2024 when he was 18 years old.

The chances of him becoming an £80 million player are higher than every single other teenaged player at West Ham.

[Massive Attack]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

Two lots of it now seems. 

[threesixty]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

 

 

Which coaching staff? the ones that have us at 14th? The ones that have seen us ship 74 goals last season or the ones that have seen us have one of the highest goals against in the leagues?

Or the ones that get Danny Ings scoring? or the ones that have taught Kudus how to pass effectively and not dribble into 3 players EVERY time he gets the ball.

That coaching staff?

[Massive Attack]

100% Gank

All eyes on Tim nice but Dim, as well as Davros Sullivan for how they've conspired in their own way to fuck the recruitment strategy right up. 

Things is it's not even just about a couple of signings either, as quite a lot of our season has hinged on fielding a regularly playing quick young Striker who regularly finds the back of the net. The chances have clearly been there this season but we've seriously struggled to put many of those chances away. Imagine what would have happened if we nailed the new regularly fit decent Striker instead of how we went about things instead? You plonk say a Duran in the side I'd argue his kind of regular goalscoring would be worth at least another 9 points to the Team. Instead we fannied about panic buying Fullkrug in the end instead of getting someone like Duran and prioritised signings like Guilherme at the beginning of the window for upwards of £25.5M. Our strategy was all back to front from the beginning and had a knock on effect of derailing our season having to field knackered old Strikers instead. 

[threesixty]

The point as you know is they still took punts on two of those young players from abroad, had a proper plan for their development with a stable and focused environment to bring them into and reaped handsome rewards. We've just dropped from Brazil into a circus with absolutely no plan for him. We're not even creating a culture or atmosphere for the player to excel. Having the fucking chairman of the club call the kid out within months of arriving is so fucking low. How on earth do you even expect him to develop well under such circumstances. We'd have been better off doing what Brighton did with MacAllister 

 

 

What's also bad is how much damage this will do to our chances of future acquisitions of this nature. The rumors will go around that we cant be trusted to develop these type of players. And we won't get them.

Then everyone in 5yrs time will wonder why we never get these top players and. cant afford the big players to take us to the next level. And it will be because of shit like this unless we change our attitude here.

[Sir Alf]

Yep, anyone who cannot see that all avenues to progression and success are blocked by Sullivan. He doesnt want to wait. And any progression or success HAS to be seen to be down to him directly. That in essence is the reason we are in a deep rut unable to move until Sullivan dies or loses capacity to control everything.

He will live into his 90s no doubt. And btw I do not doubt he wants success for West Ham and Eurooean football and has made transfer money available to do that ( not his own money but very few if any football club owners do that). The increased revenues from Euro qualification did largely get ploughed back in to the playing side.

No its simply his psychological need for adoration, appreciation. The age old “ Maslows Hierarchy of Needs” many learn about in management theory etc.  He undoubtedly has “small man syndrome” that fuels this need for power, control and appreciation.

But sadly and frustratingly so misdirected.  He will never be a leader who is a “team player”, gets things done thru others and has the humility to keep out of the limelight content to know he was enabler of succes for “the team he leads” .  Ironically if he was unseen and he did his utmost to make his employees successful, I think he would be appreciated by fans enormously. But its just not him.