How can Luis Guilherme be bad?

[threesixty]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/arti ... 247xjg1y8o

From the BBC article.

Rival fans used to mock Palmeiras' academy, singing that they had never won the Copa Sao Paulo, Brazil's premier youth competition.Those times are long gone.Not only have Palmeiras won the 'Copinha', as the tournament is affectionately known, twice (2022 and 2023), but they have also established themselves as the hottest talent factory in Brazilian football.Over the past few years, the Sao Paulo-based giants have produced and sold stars such as Chelsea-bound Estevao Willian (£29m), Real Madrid's Endrick(£28.5m), West Ham's Luiz Guilherme (£25.5m), Nottingham Forest's Danilo(£16m), and Shakhtar Donetsk's Kevin (£8m, all fees including add-ons).They have all helped Palmeiras cement their status as the most successful Brazilian team of the past decade while generating massive revenue.


This club really fucks things up doesnt it? 

[Council Scum]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

 

He's not impressed the coaching staff he has worked with, is rated as average at best and worth about 2.5mil not 25mil. 

[El Scorchio]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

 

 

That's on us- not him. We've clearly got no plan for him at all.

[threesixty]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 


 

 

 

And we are saying that if he was in the same Palmerias team that has fellow young Brazilians going for similar money, what is the likelihood that he is actually shit?

Given all the problems with our dysfunctional team, a manager we've just kicked out for underperforming etc.

It doesnt add up. If he was just a random player with a big price tag, but there are quite of few of them and they are rated highly. Sounds like a West Ham problem not a player problem.

[El Scorchio]

Gank

£25M towards a transfer deal is a lot of money, especially when FFP is so important these days. That kind of potential budget could and should have been better spent elsewhere, not on an 18yo who understandably will need plenty of time to get up to speed to produce the goods for us in the Premier League. 

If prioritising those kind of funds along with the Fullkrug budget meant the difference for a top Striker (maybe Duran), then I'd have definitely preferred that for the here and now and not on the off chance a Teenager might make it or not in the future.

 

That is the Brighton model that everyone raves about and says we should aspire to, though. They aren't finding all their youngsters for peanuts like Mitoma. They spent over 50 million on MacAllister, Cucurella and Caicedo with no guarantee of a decent return. Difference is they had this consistent long term strategy, invested in it wisely both financially and with diligent research and importantly believed in and stuck to it. Whereas we invest in one player of that type and because he's not banging in goals within months, Sullivan shits the bed, abandons the strategy and starts lashing out at the bloke he employed to carry out said strategy, while at the same time not coughing up the fee for Duran (Who TS wanted? let's not forget if we'd got him there would be no Fullkrug) and authorising 40 million quid that could have landed Duran to be spent on Kilman, who has absolutely fuck all resale value. Even AWB who has been an OK buy so far is 27, so we won't get anything out of him either.

It's a fucking mess. We are an absolute jekyll and hyde of a club in terms of recruitment, lurching from one bit of short term thinking to fix an immediate problem which lands us in trouble 18 months down the line and spending a load more to fix the problem the last bit of short term thinking landed us in. It needs a true clean slate which supposedly was why TS was brought in but then Sullivan has worked to scupper all that.

 

Caicedo cost Brighton max £4.5M with no intention to play him regularly in the 1st Team initially and loaned him out to Beershot. 

Cucurella was 23yo when he went to Brighton for £15M already as an established 1st Team footballer in La Liga. 

Macallister cost Brighton £7million and wanted the 20-year-old to stay in Argentina on loan at his Club until the Summer with Argentina Juniors in the top Argentian League. 

They're not the same deals as West Ham did with Guilherme. 

 

 

According to transfermrkt he cost them 25 million. And if that's with all add ons then you have to give the same grace to the LG fee which wouldn't be 25 million either.
We have no intention of playing LG either, just like Caicedo at first. Difference is we've not sent him out on loan. If that's a fault it's with us as a club rather than the player.

The point as you know is they still took punts on two of those young players from abroad, had a proper plan for their development with a stable and focused environment to bring them into and reaped handsome rewards. We've just dropped from Brazil into a circus with absolutely no plan for him. We're not even creating a culture or atmosphere for the player to excel. Having the fucking chairman of the club call the kid out within months of arriving is so fucking low. How on earth do you even expect him to develop well under such circumstances. We'd have been better off doing what Brighton did with MacAllister 

[Rossal]

Yes but lads what you don't seem to understand is that if he was worth £25m at 18 years old then he would have been good enough to get more minutes so far with the way the season has panned out. 

He has either been shit since he got here or we had our pants pulled down for £25m 

He isn't going to struggle to get more than 10 mins off the bench for 6 months then all of a sudden turn into this £80m player is he? 

If he has shown any glimpses of turning into a superstar in the next 5 years he would have been given far more playing time in the many many opportunities this season it has arisen to do so. 

[El Scorchio]

Succession planning is the other thing important here. Again something Brighton do spectacularly well. When someone is sold on, another player steps into their position. LG is almost certainly an attempt as succession planning for when Kudus likely leaves. He didn't get bought as a finished product ready for the premier league. As threesixty has said it's not a short term plan and he's been bought as a prospect. He's an 18 year old South American who has just been relocated to a whole different life and culture in London. Even big stars need time to settle. Let alone kids with a lot of upheaval and a lot of pressure on their shoulders.

At face value, (because there have been some allusions to this deal being dodgy but absolutely nothing of any substance as far as I can see thus far) you can look at it in one of two ways. He's a good potentially very good player who needs developing correctly and the club don't know what to do with him now he's here, or TS has bought seemingly the one player from that club who isn't going to amount to shit. Time will tell. But now is not the time to judge him because he's absolutely not the finished product. Sullivan using him within 6 months of arrival as a stick to hit TS with is absolutely mental.

[Massive Attack]

Gank

£25M towards a transfer deal is a lot of money, especially when FFP is so important these days. That kind of potential budget could and should have been better spent elsewhere, not on an 18yo who understandably will need plenty of time to get up to speed to produce the goods for us in the Premier League. 

If prioritising those kind of funds along with the Fullkrug budget meant the difference for a top Striker (maybe Duran), then I'd have definitely preferred that for the here and now and not on the off chance a Teenager might make it or not in the future.

 

That is the Brighton model that everyone raves about and says we should aspire to, though. They aren't finding all their youngsters for peanuts like Mitoma. They spent over 50 million on MacAllister, Cucurella and Caicedo with no guarantee of a decent return. Difference is they had this consistent long term strategy, invested in it wisely both financially and with diligent research and importantly believed in and stuck to it. Whereas we invest in one player of that type and because he's not banging in goals within months, Sullivan shits the bed, abandons the strategy and starts lashing out at the bloke he employed to carry out said strategy, while at the same time not coughing up the fee for Duran (Who TS wanted? let's not forget if we'd got him there would be no Fullkrug) and authorising 40 million quid that could have landed Duran to be spent on Kilman, who has absolutely fuck all resale value. Even AWB who has been an OK buy so far is 27, so we won't get anything out of him either.

It's a fucking mess. We are an absolute jekyll and hyde of a club in terms of recruitment, lurching from one bit of short term thinking to fix an immediate problem which lands us in trouble 18 months down the line and spending a load more to fix the problem the last bit of short term thinking landed us in. It needs a true clean slate which supposedly was why TS was brought in but then Sullivan has worked to scupper all that.

 

 

Caicedo cost Brighton max £4.5M with no intention to play him regularly in the 1st Team initially and loaned him out to Beershot. 

Cucurella was 23yo when he went to Brighton for £15M already as an established 1st Team footballer in La Liga. 

Macallister cost Brighton £7million and wanted the 20-year-old to stay in Argentina on loan at his Club until the Summer with Argentina Juniors in the top Argentian League. 

They're not the same deals as West Ham did with Guilherme. 

[threesixty]

Remember that West Ham is the team that didnt play Javier Macherno for about 6 months!
I think we didnt play Carlos Tevez for ages either.
And at one stage Hayden Mullins was better for the team than Mascherno. Maybe so. But Mascherno went on to be a world class multiple CL and World Cup winning player. And Mullins didn't.

The problem fans have is that when they see 25m or whatever they instantly think we pay 25m for 1st team starters so this guy must be shit. But in this circumstance, the idea is that you are getting in early on the next superstar player that you will not be able to afford in 5yrs time. 

Thats why he is valued so highly at 18yrs old. The fact that our club and its managers can't make that investment work through a development plan is just sad. I dont think its down to the player being shit or not trying hard enough.

To me this is a very serious issue. It's a lot of money for a player at that age to be a total dud. It's pretty much unheard of. Which means there is something very weird going on or maybe as usual the club management are a bunch of incompetent idiots.

 

[Gank]

Agree with that, Massive Attack, we all knew where the priorities were for signings and it was neither snapping up talent for development nor a player in his position.

Having got him now, my gripe is people writing him off for not being good enough, Why isn’t Andy Irvine getting this grief? Because he was much cheaper. So the issue people have is with the price tag (which I understand), that’s not a reason to say he isn’t good enough. 

This is why I keep mentioning the U21s. No price tag attached to most of them so the arguments about playing time for Guilherme meaning he won’t make the grade are bollocks.

If these people were honest, they would be complaining about the misdirection of the transfer funds and I’d be inclined to agree. He might come good and go for £80million in 2.5 years and whilst that would prove that he did have the potential to warrant a 25mil signing, it doesn’t address any of the issues we have with the squad right now, and maybe next season too since you mention FFP.

So the reason I’m arguing is that many posters are talking about his ability or playing time whilst in fact the true reason for not being impressed with him and giving older players more grace is that he cost a lot.

[El Scorchio]

Gank

£25M towards a transfer deal is a lot of money, especially when FFP is so important these days. That kind of potential budget could and should have been better spent elsewhere, not on an 18yo who understandably will need plenty of time to get up to speed to produce the goods for us in the Premier League. 

If prioritising those kind of funds along with the Fullkrug budget meant the difference for a top Striker (maybe Duran), then I'd have definitely preferred that for the here and now and not on the off chance a Teenager might make it or not in the future.

 

 

That is the Brighton model that everyone raves about and says we should aspire to, though. They aren't finding all their youngsters for peanuts like Mitoma. They spent over 50 million on MacAllister, Cucurella and Caicedo with no guarantee of a decent return. Difference is they had this consistent long term strategy, invested in it wisely both financially and with diligent research and importantly believed in and stuck to it. Whereas we invest in one player of that type and because he's not banging in goals within months, Sullivan shits the bed, abandons the strategy and starts lashing out at the bloke he employed to carry out said strategy, while at the same time not coughing up the fee for Duran (Who TS wanted? let's not forget if we'd got him there would be no Fullkrug) and authorising 40 million quid that could have landed Duran to be spent on Kilman, who has absolutely fuck all resale value. Even AWB who has been an OK buy so far is 27, so we won't get anything out of him either.

It's a fucking mess. We are an absolute jekyll and hyde of a club in terms of recruitment, lurching from one bit of short term thinking to fix an immediate problem which lands us in trouble 18 months down the line and spending a load more to fix the problem the last bit of short term thinking landed us in. It needs a true clean slate which supposedly was why TS was brought in but then Sullivan has worked to scupper all that.

[Council Scum]

I dont agree Summerville was back up to Kudus. But even if that was correct you are backing up what I am saying......the back up LW was still ahead of Guilherme at RW.....that shows he isn't very good! 

What are you on about? Have you actually been watching us play this season? Summerville only started 7 league games for us under Lopetegui, and then ONLY when one of Kudus, Bowen or Antonio/Fullkrug were unavailable. He was the first choice backup for those players. He NEVER played for us at RW until Potter came along and Potter played him at RWB because he's right footed.

 

Ok so why do you think Guilherme has not played then?  

I've told you why. 

[Rossal]

Ok so why do you think Guilherme has not played then?  

 

As already explained, Lopetegui was not likely to give him much game time anyway. Why would he play some 18 year old kid when he always had very good and experienced players available ahead of him, especially as he was almost from the beginning in danger of losing his job, not the sort of conditions where you try to develop a kid for the future. 

Personally I'm more concerned with why he wasn't given game time in the PL2 or sent out on loan, but that's on the management, not the player.

Because he is a £25m signing who has played first team football. There has been plenty of opportunities to give him game time. Antonio injury, Kudus ban, Paqueta loss of form......all should have paved the way for him to getting many minutes from the bench if not starts.  The experience players have been shit, other players in the squad if they were showing they were good enough had more than earned a chance. 

If he was half of what we expected we wouldnt have seen Soler and Emerson at LW over getting him in the side. Him not get a single start all season in either of his strongest positions or any meaingful minutes is madness when you consider the excitement and cost when we signed him. 

Really hope he does flourish but as I said the signs aint looking good. 

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Ok so why do you think Guilherme has not played then?  

 

As already explained, Lopetegui was not likely to give him much game time anyway. Why would he play some 18 year old kid when he always had very good and experienced players available ahead of him, especially as he was almost from the beginning in danger of losing his job, not the sort of conditions where you try to develop a kid for the future. 

Personally I'm more concerned with why he wasn't given game time in the PL2 or sent out on loan, but that's on the management, not the player.

[Massive Attack]

Gank

£25M towards a transfer deal is a lot of money, especially when FFP is so important these days as well. That kind of potential budget could and should have been better spent elsewhere, not on an 18yo who understandably will need plenty of time to get up to speed to produce the goods for us in the Premier League. 

If prioritising those kind of funds along with the Fullkrug budget meant the difference for a top Striker (maybe Duran), then I'd have definitely preferred that for the here and now and not on the off chance a Teenager might make it or not in the future.

[Rossal]

I dont agree Summerville was back up to Kudus. But even if that was correct you are backing up what I am saying......the back up LW was still ahead of Guilherme at RW.....that shows he isn't very good! 

What are you on about? Have you actually been watching us play this season? Summerville only started 7 league games for us under Lopetegui, and then ONLY when one of Kudus, Bowen or Antonio/Fullkrug were unavailable. He was the first choice backup for those players. He NEVER played for us at RW until Potter came along and Potter played him at RWB because he's right footed.

 

 

Ok so why do you think Guilherme has not played then?  

[Gank]

Ah ok, it was other people saying we should get rid. Apologies. I agree that 25 million seems a lot if he isn’t a wonder kid, but it’s not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things. All he has to do is be third choice in any position to justify that and if he becomes brilliant once settled in, he’ll be worth much more either to the squad or in the transfer market.

There are lots of things about Wedt Ham that give me the hump, but buying a future talent at 25million I’m fine with. It’s only wasted money if he goes on a free because he wasn’t good enough to play after all and nobody wanted to buy him so he has plenty of time.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

I dont agree Summerville was back up to Kudus. But even if that was correct you are backing up what I am saying......the back up LW was still ahead of Guilherme at RW.....that shows he isn't very good! 

What are you on about? Have you actually been watching us play this season? Summerville only started 7 league games for us under Lopetegui, and then ONLY when one of Kudus, Bowen or Antonio/Fullkrug were unavailable. He was the first choice backup for those players. He NEVER played for us at RW until Potter came along and Potter played him at RWB because he's right footed.

[Rossal]

Rossal, what I’m saying is, you want Guilherme gone because if he was good enough, he would be playing more (correct me if that’s not what you’re saying) but there are a lot of players older than he is who also don’t play much, one of them being Scarles who has been here longer so is settled and doesn’t have that excuse.

I don't want him gone, I am simply pointing out that the signs shown so far points more towards he is a dud than being this lad that will develop into the Bowen or Kudus levels of ability. 

If we spend £25m on a 18 year old and with some of the comments that followed, the expectation would have been that he would have had far more minutes than what he has had. 

The reasoning for this must be his ability in training and what he has shown in the few minutes he has had......otherwise why hasn't he played? 

He has been in the first team squad since July, Scarles only until recently......Scarles has shown more ability in a less amount of time this season thats my point. That is simply down to his ability and impressing......something that Guilherme has not done. 

[Rossal]

I dont agree Summerville was back up to Kudus. But even if that was correct you are backing up what I am saying......the back up LW was still ahead of Guilherme at RW.....that shows he isn't very good! 

[Gank]

Rossal, what I’m saying is, you want Guilherme gone because if he was good enough, he would be playing more (correct me if that’s not what you’re saying) but there are a lot of players older than he is who also don’t play much, one of them being Scarles who has been here longer so is settled and doesn’t have that excuse.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

 

Any criticism of us spending a large chunk of our budget on a player who clearly wouldn't be ready for much 1st team football this season is more than justified. The price tag is completely irrelevant as to whether we should find his lack of game time "extremely worrying" though, because he was obviously bought as one for the future, whether we overpaid or not. 

This is what Steidten said when he signed: "We want a squad that is competitive next season, but also to find the balance of ensuring that we plan for the longer-term future. Exciting young players like Luis Guilherme will help us to reach those goals.”

Is he that exciting anymore though?  If he was he would have gotten more game time than what is being shown. Maybe Jlop was a complete tool but he rotated the team alot and Kudus was banned for 6 games and this lad still didn't get a sniff. 

I hope he comes good and develops loads but for me the first 6 months have been a massive failure for him and the chances of him becoming close to what we thought when we signed him seem slim. 

 

Lopetegui's rotation didn't include any young players. He preferred to play AWB at left back than try Scarles. And don't forget that Lopetegui considered Summerville as backup to Kudus, so Guilherme still wasn't next in line when Kudus was unavailable.

[Ron Eff]

 

Any criticism of us spending a large chunk of our budget on a player who clearly wouldn't be ready for much 1st team football this season is more than justified. The price tag is completely irrelevant as to whether we should find his lack of game time "extremely worrying" though, because he was obviously bought as one for the future, whether we overpaid or not. 

This is what Steidten said when he signed: "We want a squad that is competitive next season, but also to find the balance of ensuring that we plan for the longer-term future. Exciting young players like Luis Guilherme will help us to reach those goals.”

Is he that exciting anymore though?  If he was he would have gotten more game time than what is being shown. Maybe Jlop was a complete tool but he rotated the team alot and Kudus was banned for 6 games and this lad still didn't get a sniff. 

I hope he comes good and develops loads but for me the first 6 months have been a massive failure for him and the chances of him becoming close to what we thought when we signed him seem slim. 

 

 

But by the same logic, Spurs would have sacked Kane off early doors. He was average at best at Millwall, Orient and Norwich on loan. Instead he developed into a £100m asset, and probably more if they sold earlier. Different players develop at different rates. 

There are two separate points. 1) Was it a gamble we maybe shouldn’t have taken at that price, quite probably. 2) Is he 100% not good enough based on the evidence? Impossible to say. 

If we can recoup the full outlay, maybe it is worth cashing in and reinvesting, but if it’s at a significant loss, just hold and see. Even if we did recoup the outlay, we would look like chumps if he did go on to become an excellent player. 

Leaving aside the fee, he is only 18. It’s speculation to say managers have deemed him not good enough. There is a big difference between not being good enough, and not being ready after coming to the Premier League from South America. 

[Council Scum]

The view from those at the club is he is average and not worth anywhere near what was paid for him and there are a lot better already at the club. 

[Rossal]

Rossal, ignore Gay Wank.

He probably just fancies you.

Least you and him would finally find some common ground 

[Rossal]

That's fair, but then Caicedo cost £4m which is a fee you'd expect as one for the future. For £25m you would expect far more from him than what he has shown/ had the chance to show. 

Sometimes for me the 'settling' stuff gets used far too easy as an excuse. There are many players who come from shit leagues, shit countries etc and hit the ground running. 

Any criticism of us spending a large chunk of our budget on a player who clearly wouldn't be ready for much 1st team football this season is more than justified. The price tag is completely irrelevant as to whether we should find his lack of game time "extremely worrying" though, because he was obviously bought as one for the future, whether we overpaid or not. 

This is what Steidten said when he signed: "We want a squad that is competitive next season, but also to find the balance of ensuring that we plan for the longer-term future. Exciting young players like Luis Guilherme will help us to reach those goals.”

Is he that exciting anymore though?  If he was he would have gotten more game time than what is being shown. Maybe Jlop was a complete tool but he rotated the team alot and Kudus was banned for 6 games and this lad still didn't get a sniff. 

I hope he comes good and develops loads but for me the first 6 months have been a massive failure for him and the chances of him becoming close to what we thought when we signed him seem slim.