Can we even play passing football?

[threesixty]

Something has bugged me for a very long time with our squad. Why is passing and controlling the ball so hard for us? This has been going on for years and years. Even in relatively successful times we have been mostly shit at passing and controlling the ball. I dont understand it anymore.

I feel like Moyes avoided fixing that issue and relied on low possession counter attacking so it wasnt a problem for him. The question now is that type of football so ingrained in West Ham as a squad and maybe an institution that its just too hard to change in a short space of time?

People may think it's a mad thing to say because of how expensive our squad is. But when you think about it, our best players are not good passing players or even players that control the ball well at all.
It feels like over the years we have assembled everybody on footballing earth who actually together cant do the basic job of a passing game.

And I'm wondering whether any manager could fix us? Gary O'Neil looked good last season I feel because Wolves in their DNA are a passing side. They have been for years since their Portuguese takeover and Nuno was there. So O'Neil doesnt have to worry about the basics, he can just think about tactics etc. I doubt he could do a job for us because the basics are not there. I think this would stump most managers. There's talk of Allegri coming in, but he would lose his shit about how bad our players are at basic football! He'd probably flop too.

Lopetegui must be thinking these guys cant even pass the bloody ball around?? I bet he cant believe it. How do you get to win a European trophy but can barely hold the ball?

I think we are the oddest club in European football. Nothing makes sense. So much talent on paper, squad worth x amount, and in a lot of ways cant even play the modern game. It's baffling how its got to this.

[Sir Alf]

We dont have the correct profile of player to play the way he wants. Its so obvious that we cannot press and dont because the players know if they press high especially in midfield we will continue to get mullered on the counter.  I see Loppy barking instructions to central midfield, defenders to move forward but they ignore them now. They tried pressing but teams are just too quick and pass thru the press, the likes of Rodruiguez, Soucek, Paqueta, Soler and Alvarez as a collective are not able to move quick enough.  Hence the team is stuck in tjis “half hearted” approach of playing Loppy’s high line, advanced wing back system when their instincts are telling them to defend deeper to handle the counter attacks and mobile, pressing opposition midfields that can outrun us. 

we did not recruit all of the type of players we needed to play the way Loppy wants and sets up his teams to play.  Its Rodriiguez, Soler and Fullkrug that we got wrong.  They ate decent players in a different team with “legs” and speed around them.  

Lopetegui is probably briefed by Sullivan and Steidten to evolve our style to a possession game and as far away from Moyesball as possible. But he doesnt have all the type of players us needs to do it. 

Like going into a war zone without a bullet proof vest and armour. Suicidal

imho as always

[Mex Martillo]

I've noticed this as well Threesixty. It is very frustrating to see every week players booting the ball aimlessly up the feild and not manging to string lasses together. It's like we played as school kids, but these are highly paid professionals that should do much better. I had not thought that this could be ingrained into us and difficult to escape.

I had a look at passing stats. This season we are low table for short and medium passing and high in the table for long passing. It's similar to last season or even worse as Moyes had us more mid table. If we are to believe Lopetegui is making the change to passing attacking football, it kind of all backs you up that the players are struggling to change and actully have not!
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/passing/Pr ... ague-Stats

How long do we give Lopetegui? Will a panic manager change just get us back a Moyes type sit back and counter prolonger further this style of play?
If the players cannot adapt we are looking stuck!

[Full Claret Jacket]

When we say “players out of form” is it really players don’t know how to play in a passing system? When these players did well it was a strict counter attack side with very little possession. Seems easy to look good if you don’t actually have to have the ball much!

My concern now is that no manager can fix this club in a short period of time without ages of coaching or literally swapping out half the squad. The short term fix is to back to non possession based football and get in a manager that loves that (Moyes 2.0, Mourinho etc)

I remember Antonio saying on a podcast that last time when Moyes tried to play possession based football it just didn’t work because the squad didn’t really know how. So they reverted back to type. I feel like this is a really serious deep rooted problem for us that is beyond any manager providing a quick fix. 

 

Good players certainly can adapt and play a passing style. I also think we have brought in quite a few players who are decent at controlling and passing a football. There is a distinct lack of movement as a team and we are back to whacking it long and giving it back to the opposition. We need to move the ball quicker and pass shorter so that teams can't get a challenge in or get organised. A lack of invention, lack of ability and pace in a few areas. Central midfielders are really slow and don't bite in challenges but stand off and mark space. Passive and easy to play around just like Moyes team was. When they do anticipate and try to challenge it's too late and they get cards and give free kicks.

Antonio can't play a passing game. He technically isn't good enough or intelligent enough and now his legs have gone he doesn't have the burst of pace or the leap that made him good in the air. He needs replacing. He'd probably love us to carry on with hoofball whilst he strolls around and falls on the floor. Never seen someone built like a weight lifter fall on the floor so easily every game. Been great value for us but just ruining his legacy playing like he does now.

[threesixty]

When we say “players out of form” is it really players don’t know how to play in a passing system? When these players did well it was a strict counter attack side with very little possession. Seems easy to look good if you don’t actually have to have the ball much!

My concern now is that no manager can fix this club in a short period of time without ages of coaching or literally swapping out half the squad. The short term fix is to back to non possession based football and get in a manager that loves that (Moyes 2.0, Mourinho etc)

I remember Antonio saying on a podcast that last time when Moyes tried to play possession based football it just didn’t work because the squad didn’t really know how. So they reverted back to type. I feel like this is a really serious deep rooted problem for us that is beyond any manager providing a quick fix. 
 

[Gary Strodders shank]

I would like to see Kilman try to bring the ball out of defence more as he seems to have that ability but is either under orders not to or doesn't have the confidence at the moment.

Rodriguez or Alvaraz when not banned can drop in as cover .

Too many players out of form and seemingly not wanting the ball for me.with Summerville the exception 

Kudos and Paqueta seemingly distracted and AWB not really putting in a shift at times.

Todibo looks a decent player so one positive.

A lack of direction and belief under this new manager and certainly not the upgrade on Moyesball we hoped for.


 

[Massive Attack]

Even Bowen has struggled to have an impact on games. 







 

Agree with pretty much everything else you said but strongly disagree about Bowen who has arguably been our most consistent performer. The one player as Captain that's tried his level best to force the issue and be that spark in the Team that's led to important goals throughout the season...

- Goal at Palace

- Scored the only goal of the game in Cup against Bournemouth 

- Made the only goal against Man City

- Assisted Ings equaliser at Fulham

- Played a great role in Souceks goal at Brentford

- Assists Antonio for opener against Ipswich and scores himself in thrashing

- Assisted Kudus goal at Spurs

- Assists Summervilles goal and scores important Penalty late in game under pressure

- Came very close to opening scoring against Everton on weekend

​​That's something like 10 or so important pieces of action that's led to scoring goal alone.

That's good considering he's been asked to play in different positions, as well as the Team having to play with 10 men 3 times already this season. He's been the 1 player who's stood up to be counted and produced it consistently in different ways throughout, including his excellent work rate tracking back, even though as a Team we've been playing poorly. 

Everything else I think you have it right. 

[Full Claret Jacket]

Some of the issues are players and their lack of suitability for the league. Needing too much time on the ball, not used to running for 90 minutes at the pace of the game here. The other issue is tactics. At the start of the season it seemed we were looking to place the ball around quickly and embed a style where we didn't give teams the option to press us however the players made a ton of mistakes and weren't up to it. Then there is the strange deployment of Alvarez as the worlds slowest defender and the pushing up of full backs which leaves a ton of space for teams to play. We always look fragile with the ball and allow teams to counter attack freely. With the quality in this squad the manager has to find a balance. I honestly think we have too many technical but lazy players and not enough grafters. 

• Areola has been shocking. Kicking just horrible.
• Wan Bissaka looks lazy a lot of the time.
• Kudus is greedy, lazy and frustrated.
• Alvarez slow, rash and inconsistent.
• Rodrigez miles off the pace and wants too much time on the ball
• Paqueta has a pass in him but so wasteful and disappears in games.
• Antonio is no better than a door stop

Even Bowen has struggled to have an impact on games. 
Only bright spots have been Summerville and strangely the rarely used Ings who at least seems to put in a shift and has made something happen in a couple of games.  
Still not convinced on Kilman and Todibo (who I rate) hasn't got up to speed and isn't helped by a defense all over the place. 
Could another manager get more out of them? Maybe but the players also need to buy in and there needs to be a balance that just isn't there at the moment. 

[Massive Attack]

Key factors that I think have contributed in part to our lack of Team cohesion and quality of play has been;


- Both key player's Kudus and Alvarez have received lengthy bans at the start of the season (Alvarez two spells absent - Kudus 5 matches absent)


- Paqueta has been suffering big time for any kind of form for obvious reasons and another one who is considered a key player - Personally think we have been effectively playing with 10 men most of the time since the season started


- New cheapo Defensive Midfield signing Rodriguez. Unless he has a sudden turn around soon, his inclusion has cost us dear in slow pedestrian play and occasional brain fart passing


- Areolas shocking form conceding so early in matches so often, as well as his piss poor distribution severely dented the Teams confidence to build anything from


- New main Striker Fullkrug being a long term sicknote before the season really got underway. And in the meantime Lopetegui has been scratching around trying to make do with an over the hill Antonio, a poor man's No.9 Bowen, although kept overlooking Ings who shoukd have been the answer a month ago



So when you put all that in to the mix, I can see why we have struggled for continuity and quality of play when some of our best player's have been either missing or severely underperforming. Particularly whilst Lopetegui tries to implement a more intricate new style of play that really needs to rely on a mostly unchanged starting best XI to get us going properly.

Some of it has been of his own doing and some of it has been out of his control. Once the Team does eventually settle down though and gets a better understanding of how he wants them to play, I do think we will start to see an improvement in Football and results as the season continues. 

 

[threesixty]

I also think our lack of confidence on the ball is noticed by other teams that face us. They are more likely to press our defence and midfield knowing we will fumble the ball or make a weak pass under pressure.
This also makes our defence very hesitant when figuring out what to do when moving the ball forward. 
We end up trying to move the ball down the wings as no one in our team really trusts our midfield.
So you end up seeing these weird patterns of play where we are trying to move almost hugging the touch line too afraid to pass to players in the middle. Makes us very easy to defend against us.

Conversely, no team is afraid of our press at all. In fact they welcome it because they know
a) they are comfortable on the ball and pass it easily around us
b) it will move our players out of position making things easy for them

I also think the reason Kudus runs with the ball so much and doesnt look to pass is that he doesnt trust our midfield to not fuck it up! Maybe Paq feels the same way as he has a very bad habit of holding on to the ball.

I'm praying the JLo can see this stuff and has a convincing plan to solve the deeper routed issues we are seeing here. West Ham have relied on the individual skill of players we've managed to grab in recent times but have failed to create a footballing philosophy at the same time. Unlike other teams when our key players are missing we get nothing. 

We've relied on Payet, Arnie, or prime Antonio, now Kudus etc.. to get us out of jail because in reality, we can't play football very well as a team (at least not possession football). 

If we do get another coach I want a young coach trying to make his name that believes ONLY in possession football and will die on that hill. We need this philosophy embedded into us one the next decade. It will take along time for us to get this in our DNA. But it will be worth it in the long run.


 

[Massive Attack]

Who knows for sure exactly what we can or cannot do in the January window, only the Board will know. I've a feeling something can be done however they go about it and hope it's the signing/s that kick start our season back in to gear. 

Keeper 
Midfielder  
Striker

Or maybe we already have 1 of them in our Academy that might surprise us by bursting on to the scene. I'm thinking in particular Scarles or Orford, if all our loaness cannot return till the end of the season. I noticed Scarles was on the bench Saturday, so he's already on Lopetegui's radar ..

And believe me, Lopetegui definitely isn't afraid to turn to youth if he genuinely believes in their ability, regardless of how young they are. It was him that gave Ruben Neves his debut at Porto at just 17yo in Midfield. A manager who clearly knows how to manage quality youth players very well, having won trophies for Spains youth levels.

He's already twice turned to 18yo Guilherme late on in games coming off the bench, even though he's still bedding in to a new Country/Club so young.

[scott_d]

The biggest thing for me that separates the winners from the losers in the Premier League is consistency and this applies to individuals and ultimately the team.

Every team in the Premiership has a number of players who are capable of playing smart passes and through-balls for the forwards to latch on to.  Maybe not the same level as the top, top players, but they can all do it.

The reason they are not at a top club is because they can't do it week in, week out and that applies to West Ham too.

Paqueta possesses incredible ability and is capable of looking like a world class player on his day.  But he signed for West Ham because he doesn't do it often enough for the top teams.  

Someones, all the players reach that level at the same time and you get the likes of Leicester winning the league.  Obviously the manager plays a part in that too and it happens on various levels for various teams, even the tops teams.

That's my opinnion anyway.

[Sir Alf]

I applaud your optimism Massive. Im not so confident ( as is my MO at the best of times admittedly ) but would agree if somehow we could get one, preferably 2 better suited players in central midfield ( fast, aggressive, stamina, strong ) it could transform things.  Wan Bassaka and Emerson pushing forward is then mitigated and as a unit in midfield we see much more movement and hence passing options. Above that, we will actually be able to press and counter press for the first time in the last 15 years. 

But its a tall order due to Sullivan now making clear thru his cronies that we are broke for the season in terms of cash and he will cite the 130 million spent, wont mention sales and wage reductions thru loans but will also bring FFP / PSR or whatever its called into the list of reasons we cant spend. On top of that, getting quality players in Jan is a challenge.  If there was a loan or two then maybe but it would still come up against the “we’re skint” barrier.

The miracle we need is the story this morning of Real Madrid wanting our lightweight Morrocan centre back who has been outstanding at Real Sociedad?  But its just a story so more  “clutching at straws” desperation. £30 million inbound would probably not do it anyway, Sullivan rolling his “we tried” process out yet again and us reportedly missing out on big name, “razzle dazzle” players.

 

[Massive Attack]

Our passing game was decent under Redknapp for a while once he started getting more and more of our better player's coming through the ranks like Joe Cole, Carrick, Ferdinand and Lampard. With added quality signings then complimenting them well with the likes of Di Canio, Sinclair, Bilic, Pearce, Berkovic. That era under Redknapp had plenty of quality passers even in his early tenure with Bishop, Moncur, Williamson, Hutchison. The philosophy was there.

Sure, the results weren't always the best due to being so attack minded and lacking quality in other areas as it evolved but the quality of Football was a very enjoyable one when it did click in to gear. 

Beyond that I'd say Pardews 1st Premier League season was a decent level of passing that got us a well deserved top 10 finish, big scalps and typified in the FA Cup Final where we turned it on in style with the likes of Benayoun, Ashton, Etherington, Fletcher all decent passers of the ball.

Zola produced it occasionally to be fair to him the short time he was here.

And I'd say Bilic during the Boleyn season was probably the last time as a Team we really passed the ball about well and in style involving Payet, Lanzini, Song, Noble, Carroll.

More recent times it really has been in short supply and although it didn't turn out well in the end, during spells in Pellegrini's 1st season in charge I liked the way we popped the ball about involving Noble and Lanzini once again, Arnautovic, Anderson, Rice. 

Getting back to the present day, although I've found it very frustrating at times with a lack of cohesion showing, I do see us at least trying to get back to passing ways as a Club. And when it does work momentarily (all too few and far between so far for our liking) it's actually very appealing when you suddenly notice quick 1-touch play that sparks in to life leading to goals such as Souceks at Brentford and Summervilles against Man Utd goal. I think there was even a moment in the game 1st half where we had possession of the ball either in our half or halfway then it burst in to life with the player's pinging it about effortlessly which looked like it might lead to a goal had Antonio, I think it was, didn't lose the ball at the end of the move. 

I do see the faintest signs of it working when it comes off. My frustration though is we can't seem to keep it up when it does happen and we go back to old ways playing very safe and slow Football. And when I flick my eyes over at the dugout occasionally I'd notice Lopetegui ain't happy at all himself, quite often gesticulating at the player's to up their game, the tempo of the match, being more snappier rather than laboured and lacking conviction when in possession.

If we could manage to make it click in the Team and they start understanding everything required to play this passing game, I think eventually people will be pleasantly surprised. And like I've said previously on this thread, I still believe we need a couple of new signings in January to help aid that, as I'm not sure we quite have enough quality in specific areas of the pitch to consistently pass it well enough from back to front. Especially with the intensity of the Premier League getting to the likes of Rodriguez as the opposition hunt the ball down quickly. 

Whoever it is that does end up managing us though long term, I do believe we will eventually get back to playing quality passing Football again, even if it means having to wait a bit longer than we originally hoped for.

We do have a nucleus of quality players to work with in Bowen, Kudus, Summerville, Kilman, Todibo and Paqueta (should he ever regain his form?!) Who are all comfortable on the ball, that hopefully can also be supplemented in time by a promising new crop of cutlured Footballers from the Academy, echoing the education of the late 90s to add to it in Earthy, Orford, Potts, Scarles and the like.

We'll get there, even it it doesn't seem it right now.

[Lato]

I have always thought that it seems to have got worse since we moved to the London Stadium. But if you look deeper then I don't think we have consistently passed the ball well since the days of Brooking and Devonshire. It's worrying really!

[Massive Attack]

I mean, Zola did once win the Football League Championship manager of the month award back in February 2013..

Yeah, I think I'd rather stick with the proven track record of Lopetegui's all the same.

[Hammer and Pickle]

I think Zola would have done a lot better with this squad. Peggie ain’t even up to Zola level.

Zola's managerial record is shocking by comparison to Lopetegui's on every level. 

Just think Zola would motivate this group of players better than Peggie’s “record”.

[Massive Attack]

I think Zola would have done a lot better with this squad. Peggie ain’t even up to Zola level.

Zola's managerial record is shocking by comparison to Lopetegui's on every level. 

[Hammer and Pickle]

I think Zola would have done a lot better with this squad. Peggie ain’t even up to Zola level.

[Massive Attack]

This is one of the big reasons why im prepared to give Lopetegui the full season at least to build and mould the Team more in his style, rather than judge him too quickly relying on slow cloggers like Antonio (all due respect to him as father time is calling), Rodriguez, Fabianski. 

 

Yeah, I think I'm sort of wondering whether I'm going along with the mob about wanting Lopetegui out at the moment. I just cant believe a manager as experienced as him can be really shit. It doesnt make any sense

That's because it's a myth that he is a shit manager. 

[threesixty]

Steiden if he recruited that midfield duo of Rodriguez and Soler will know he fvcked up but Im thinking they were Loppy choices?  

 

 

I'm guessing that Loppy got them in because they were technical players but misjudged
a) the effect "non technical" players would have on the whole 11 in terms of possession based football
b) how quickly they would acclimatise to the speed and energy of the PL

I dont think it's fair to judge Rodrigues and Soler imho simply because other equally poor players on our team have had years in this league now. I think it can take a long time to get used to it. Pep has said it, everyone's said it. It's not like other leagues.

I feel like Loppy has maybe panicked a bit when results haven't happened and has just thrown shit at the wall and see's what sticks. If he does get sacked it should be because he hasn't stuck to any principals and believed in his plans for transforming the club. I don't think a transformation of our team involves Antonio, Soucek, Coufal etc. I dont think any player without good technique should be starting for us. And I dont really care if we dont get the results in the short term because of that. 

If we dont use the 1st half of the season to bed in a style the 2nd half is just scrambling to avoid relegation.
But the fans want to see stuff now I suppose. Its a catch 22.

[Sir Alf]

Its all opinions but most of us have played the game and being able to pass it is in part technique ( how you strike the ball and weight of pass etc ( some can use both feet and inside or outside of the foot) but a lot of it is also down to movement and agility and speed.  If collectively everyone isnt highly energised, trying to create space with fast movement being optimal, the options are more limited, you either attempt the wrong pass or hang onto too long and with the Premiership pace and pressing thats often fatal.  But we do have a few lads who struggle with the pace at which you have to pass. Soucek, Antonio, Coufal are the ones that come to mind but even Paqueta in tight spaces is high risk.  Our keepers are now also a limiting factor.  The ability to be constantly on the move, a flick or one touch can open teams up.  We dont have the players to do it.  The likes of Rodriguez, Paqueta, Soler can pass well with a little time and space and with lots of options but as a team we are so slow and completely devoid of energy. Out of possession, an even bigger problem in central midfield whete the lack of energy, pace and stamina means we cannot get near half the teams in the league. We cannot press and dont.  

on top of all this we play a suicidal high line with very advanced win backs. Its pretty much the most risky way we could play.

We have little choice but sit a bit deeper ( mid block) more Moyesesque yes by keeping compact and breaking as we get the ball since we have the numbers in central midfield to compensate for the lack of “legs” . But not in the extreme as Moyes would do.   
Its an interim fix to some degree. But it will
get us better results Imo

But the long term is to energise that central midfield and get us an Antonio replacement who does have the passing technique along with strength and pace.

Surely someone at the club can see the coach’s tactics are exposing the above physicality shortfalls and if he knows no other tactical approach he has to go.  Even Andy Townsend wrote an article about these same central midfield problems of lack of pace and players unable to get anout tje pitch ( legs ).  Several other pundits have highlighted it. Surely Steidten will know this and Noble who has recently played in the Prem?  

Steiden if he recruited that midfield duo of Rodriguez and Soler will know he fvcked up but Im thinking they were Loppy choices?  Steidten and his team use data supposedly? Well data is great if you know what you are looking for in the first place ( criteria).  Then you use the data to get the right profile of player with the attributes required.  Something seriously went wrong for central midfield and up front? Or was it that they compromised, ignored the data approach and simply gave the coach some players he personally wanted? 

[threesixty]

Oh leave it out. As if these players can't pass and control a ball. Stop talking bollocks. The problem is that none of them have a fucking clue what they are supposed to be doing. If you've played football you will know that not knowing what your job is and / or what your team-mates job is can be the biggest leveller. If you play football with any confusion of what you and the team are supposed to be doing then you can look a right cսnt. 

A team's tactics, philosophy and processes to achieve the win should be second nature. No player should be wondering what they should be doing. If you are then you will inevitably play like a cսnt. 



 

 

 

There was a time when a whole generation of English teams could barely pass the ball properly. Especially compared to their European / South American counterparts.

They were just not used to it. In fact it’s only in recent times that the England team have been considered a passing side. 
What Alf was saying seems to make sense: if you have 2 or 3 players in your 11 that can’t control and pass it kind of ruins the whole team as everyone needs to be good at doing that. 

im only going by what I see and for years now, week in week out, the nervousness I feel when we are on the ball never changes. When im watching other teams I never think they can’t keep the ball or make basic passes to move the ball around the pitch. But with West Ham, I’m almost clapping when they do basic shit. It’s crazy. I’m surprised sometimes that we are a PL club. And that was under Moyes as well. 

we rarely look like we deserve to be in this league given our style of football. 

[Russ of the BML]

Oh leave it out. As if these players can't pass and control a ball. Stop talking bollocks. The problem is that none of them have a fucking clue what they are supposed to be doing. If you've played football you will know that not knowing what your job is and / or what your team-mates job is can be the biggest leveller. If you play football with any confusion of what you and the team are supposed to be doing then you can look a right cսnt. 

A team's tactics, philosophy and processes to achieve the win should be second nature. No player should be wondering what they should be doing. If you are then you will inevitably play like a cսnt. 

 

[threesixty]

 

This is one of the big reasons why im prepared to give Lopetegui the full season at least to build and mould the Team more in his style, rather than judge him too quickly relying on slow cloggers like Antonio (all due respect to him as father time is calling), Rodriguez, Fabianski. 

 

 

Yeah, I think I'm sort of wondering whether I'm going along with the mob about wanting Lopetegui out at the moment. I just cant believe a manager as experienced as him can be really shit. It doesnt make any sense

I remember when Ancelloti was at Everton and he didnt do very well considering his pedigree. But there were clear issues with the squad (I think they had a million creative mids for some reason). And he couldn't make it work. I think Allardyce was more suited to that squad because he doesnt care about "playing football" so to speak. So people kind of assumed Ancellotti had lost it, however, he went on to win 3 CL's and a La Liga with Madrid.

When Lopetegui had a good Spanish squad he was unbeaten in internationals for years if I remember correctly. I feel like PL fans are very reactionary and West Ham fans have tasted some success recently so maybe we aren't looking at the big picture.

This squad isnt his squad. I really dont want to go backwards. If it takes a year or so transform our squad recruitment wise then perhaps we just need to handle that?

[Keep dreaming]

Everyone footballer can play a passing game, but some are better than others.
And, it's really all down to the manager.

Even the keeper has to be a good passer, in a modern passing football team.

Defensive minded managers tend to overlook the keeper and especially the cdm's capacity to pass.