Moyes Out ( Released )

[Keep dreaming]

"Posted the same last year. Nothing has changed, except win don't win matches anymore. I'm fed up, we can do much better"

[Searlo1966]

I bet he doesn't either. He might get on the bench if Moyes is feeling generous.....

[Romfordboy]

We for sure will not have the drop off in quality in the midfield area we did last season

[El Scorchio]

"Precisely. Soucek and Rice can't and won't play every game. Downes will absolutely get significant game time, probably alongside each one of them. He and Rice looked a good combo yesterday, and he and Soucek will allow the big man to get in the box more often than he does with Rice, and hopefully get amongst the goals again. Fucking fantastic to have multiple viable options for once. We have them all over the park now."

[BRANDED]

"If you're Downes you're saying "" I'm playing in Europe and winning as man of the match for West Ham. What's not to love?"" He'll get his chances."

[El Scorchio]

Willtell 1:23 Of course he won't. He's part of a SQUAD. The players who were rested last night will. Downes probably starts again next Thursday and will get plenty of chances over the next month.

[Willtell]

"West Ham manager Moyes told BT Sport: ""We've started to get a squad of players we can chop and change when we need to. The players we brought on made a difference. ""Flynn Downes was the best player tonight, he did really well. He put a marker down."" ----------------------------------------------- It seems as if Moyes has spotted Flynn Downes is in his squad at last. Bet he doesn't start him against Fulham..."

[Russ of the BML]

", 1:43 Thu Oct 6 That may be correct. But I have associates, one who supports Boro and another that supports Derby. Both mentioned Downes to me last season and when we looked to get him I looked him up and saw he was top of the Championship stats for midfielders and was actually top of all midfielders in all British leagues. Championship is a big league but it is rare that supports of PL teams really know of the top players. I'd not heard of Bowen until we were in for him. The point is, you don't have a point. Just because most had not heard of him prior to us signing doesn't mean he shouldn't get a chance. You don't get highest stats for a midfielder in all leagues and be a mug."

[Meerkat]

"If Moyes is not playing Downes because he was not one of his picks , it shows him to be a horribly vindictive prick . If true it is shameful treatment of a 23 yr old . His man management is very much open to question. Similarly his treatment of Benrahma who frustrates the hell out of me btw is very shabby . Would this behaviour be tolerated in any non sport set up !"

[Eerie Descent]

", 1:43 Thu Oct 6 What an utterly shit post."

[Willtell]

That's true Comma except Downes played 39 games for Swansea last season. Apparently he figured top or 2nd on most stats. He's played one game against FCSB where he was MOTM then nothing. Not even for the last 5 minutes while Soucek has had some awful games. That is not the way to motivate a player as old as Rice that was making his way at Swansea but now is a bench sitter after a MOTM performance. How would you feel Cpmma?

[LJC]

"That's a very broad assumption but even if it is true, then all the info out there, coupled with Souceks start to the season has led to people thinking he deserves longer than he has had to prove his worth. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation."

[,]

"Let's get some perspective on Downes because his name in particular was on nobody's lips on this Board last season. And I bet than when his transfer was announced most of us had to look him up to find out about him. For me, of the players that have come in, he is least likely to be a first team regular for now so let's stay calm and see how he develops over time."

[Willtell]

"Downes is one of those mysteries that can only be explained by him not being one of Moyes picks. We jumped ahead of Patrick Vieira having agreed a fee and Downes on the point of signing for Palace. Mpoyes doesn't normally move that quick... It's the type of thing Sulli might do on the basis the stats were excellent in Championship, he's a WHU fan since childhood and if Vieira wants him he must be good. I saw an interview with Downes a few weeks ago where he sounded disillusioned and was saying he never wanted to leave Swansea. It's a shame if Moyes is avoiding picking him out of childishness when he looked really excellent in his one game then that alone should get Moyes sacked."

[With Kind Regards]

Russ of the BML 11:56 Thu Oct 6 Re: Moyes Out Completely agree.

[Russ of the BML]

"Sir Alf 9:43 Wed Oct 5 I'm surprised that Downes hasn't been given more time. Soucek played alot better against Wolves but, for me, he is still way off his best form and what we need. My worry is that I don't totally trust Moyes. And I think Downes absence in the team is Moyes way of saying 'I didn't ask for you and didn't want you so I won't play you'. And when Moyes says things like 'He's not quite there yet' and 'he's not quite doing enough in training' I do worry that its not the truth. Downes is a very good technical player. Better than Soucek. He has excellent ability on the ball and moves it intelligently. He is also excellent at ball retention which is what we need. He covers alot of ground and put his foot in and breaks play up. Moyes may be worried he's losing Soucek's height and physicality. I get that. But we've got enough lumps in the team to cope with that."

[Sir Alf]

"You would hope by tge end of this month and the start of the WC we will see a few more of the new recruits on the pitch at the same time in the first 11. The one player I am a tad concerned about is Downes because Moyes indicated that he had not been doing enough in training to warrant many starts / appearances. He did give him 90 against the Silkberg mob but has not been seen since? Is he still not doing enough in training? Hopefully he starts tomorrow and has another good showing but I do sometimes think he, like Benrahma we're not Moyes ""picks""ù? He did not say ""no""ù to whoever thought they were worth bringing in but equally he might not see them as ""his""ù recruits? Probably just me being a conspiracy nutter and I hope Downes has another decent game to make his case because, despite Soucek doing a good job with ball retrieval and recovery last Saturday it is my humble opinion that his passing and technique will continue to undermine our ability to make the transition to keeping the bleeding ball more than 40% in most games :-)"

[ironsofcanada]

"Sven Roeder 3:47 Wed Oct 5 ""My issue I don't even think Moyes knows what we actually are at the moment."" Yes, whether it is because we are trying to transition or whether he is being forced to into something he doesn't want and resisting. I guess the next few games should tell us."

[Russ of the BML]

ironsofcanada 5:36 Tue Oct 4 Yeah. Agree with that. My issue I don't even think Moyes knows what we actually are at the moment. It's all a bit confused. Do we press? Do we defend deep and in formation? You can get away with that lack of a style against half of the teams in the PL (like Wolves) but the top teams will hang you out to dry if the team are not sure what we should be doing.

[ironsofcanada]

"Russ of the BML 10:30 Tue Oct 4 I would agree, there is certainly is not a well co-ordinated plan for the press. We do have players who try. Fornals is probably in there as much as he is because he does. Paqueta ran some people down at points. Took a clearance of the back-side that helped set up an eventual attack, for instance But he stopped probably down to fitness and probably part of why he got subbed. Bowen does at points. But, as you say, a lot of times that effort is wasted. Just get back in formation, if it's just you. We had our success getting back to the low block and then countering. I recently watched back the 20/21 goals and in additon to the set pieces, what gave goals was Bowen, Lingard, Antonio and even Fornals on the run and finishing. But I think teams worked that out and players fell out of form last year. One thing that was also there in 20/21 was Haller and Yarmalenko, Lanzini and even really early Snodgrass being flat-track bullies - being able to break teams down in cup games. But they were not good enough or motivated enough to do it up a level. I would hope we can train that (as well as better pressing) along with the counter stuff we do. I think Moyes is scared of teams doing to us what we have had success with and there is some reason for that if we pass as poorly as we have in times past. Another barrier to change. Cornet and Bowen are certainly break players. Paqueta, so far, and Scamacca are not especially. So we will need to be flexible in formation and personel. Whether this manager can do that remains to be seen."

[,]

"Sir Alf, 8.13, you said ""if Moyes gets us a trophy I can live with it""ù. Poor old you because if Moyes gets us a Trophy it will be the first time in a generation and the overwhelming majority of us will be ecstatic whilst you live with it."

[Russ of the BML]

"Ironsofcanada: You make some good points. Well articulated. One point I would make about possession and letting opponent have the ball. I do think this is a good tactic if you are defending with intent. What I mean by that is that you let the opponent have the ball but at all times you put them under pressure. You press in all areas and you press as a team and with a plan. Your players are hunting, setting traps and closing space and squeezing. Perfect example. Man City. They chase down in twos and three's and almost use the opponent as the catalyst for their attacks. Too many times Wolves had the ball and their players had 3, 4 or 5 seconds on the ball. There was no press. No squeeze. And every now and then one of our players would burst to life and go and chase, opponent moves the ball aside and passes to team-mate but our press hasn't been backed up by another player. Our presser is now out the game and Wolves moved forward for another attack. So, the simple solution is, if you are going to let the opponent have the ball, then do your work in training and get the fitness and the game plan to do it and do it properly. Don't just let the opponent have the ball when you have no intent or desire to hunt them down. Because if you don't then don't do it. Get the ball and keep the ball. For me, we aren't one or the other. We don't maintain possession and we don't press. So what the fuck are we doing?"

[Sir Alf]

"As per the other thread, Gary Neville's article about Antonio Conte's counter attacking game no longer working if u want to win things equally applies to Moyes. Mourinho also achieved great success with it until Pep and Barcelonas ""tiki taka "" game took over. Pep comes to the Premiership and new, younger managers now adopting a possession based game and getting success. The Jerries line Klopp combined it with athleticism and power. Potter at Brighton got players like Dunk playing out from the back and his team ( ok he's at Chelsea now ) outplayed Liverpool for large periods last Saturday at Anfield. Last successful team playing the sit deep and counter attack system was probably Mourinho at United and perhaps even last year at Roma? It may get you a Europa or Conference trophy which would be bloody marvellous for us but the football might not always be tge best or most exciting. If Moyes gets us a trophy I can live with it but it looks like many teams know how to deal with it and can keep the ball so much better that we totally rely on an individual getting a goal or a set piece rather than opening teams up. Hence on Saturday we were able to get the victory. Yes there were some improvements in defensive solidarity ( Dawson / Kehrer at RB ) but not sure all teams will be as toothless upfront as Wolves. I have tge hope that Moyes , Nevin, Nolan and McKinley are working on eventually transitioning away from total reliance on counter attacking and not conceding but have doubts too especially with the likes of Nolan being key on tge training ground etc?"

[ironsofcanada]

"Side of Ham 5:04 Mon Oct 3 Can't rest on past laurels which why he needs to go if he can't get basic results and make me enjoy watching. He has set up of some expectations with some pretty historic success but I agree he needs to show we can approach games more than one way. I think applying the mentality thing to the whole of his tenure might be a bit broad but is valid. The players we brought in Scamacca - with a good long shot, Pacqueta - keeps the ball and hopefully soon killer passing - and Kehrer and Aguerd - quicker ball moving defenders. These are players to try to break down teams - approach the game a different way. Either he had no say in them - in which case get rid of him last summer - or he is looking that way but is fighting his own nature to do it. I try to be an optimist and if the results come and I enjoy what I see, I will default to the latter. I am also loyal maybe partially because I think: ""Of course, it could be worse after a change - it's West Ham."" (Which is a bit contradictory) And would like us make smart decisions, not reactive ones, unless it is an emergency, which it was becoming/still is."

[Side of Ham]

"ioc, the problem I have is that his set-up for games involves letting the opposition have the ball which then relies on his team having the confidence to know they will likely not concede, this is why so much is made about 'clean sheets' when his sides win. They also need the confidence to know they can hit back if they do concede to rescue a point. Take the confidence or effort needed and you have a loser mentality......this will need to be changed during a season if the results are draining the confidence out of the team I'm afraid. As it stands we are all worried that his tactics leave us one defeat away from the team being unconfident again."

[ironsofcanada]

"Side of Ham 4:25 Mon Oct 3 If you think it will never happen, I can respect that. I don't think the time to make a fundamental change like that is during a season. At least with a transfer window and preferable in the summer. I am trying to take in both a long view and the evidence I see on the pitch. He was backed during a summer and nothing was good enough. I said he needed to improve and win these two winnable games to keep his job. He has done one of two for me at this juncture. He then probably gets until the World Cup. If we are not top half, you look again. I enjoyed watching the last game, which has not been the case but the results need to keep coming."