Moyes Out ( Released )

[Keep dreaming]

"Posted the same last year. Nothing has changed, except win don't win matches anymore. I'm fed up, we can do much better"

[,]

"I don't set much store by having the lion's share of possession. The way some teams dominate the ball without making any more, or even fewer, chances on goal than their opponents proves my point. This is because much of the possession is passive keeping the ball from the opposition whilst not risking a chance making pass for fear of the opposition capitalising on it. In terms of love of possession Barcelona in their tikka tikka days were the benchmark but I genuinely found their style of play, where often they seemed to want to walk the ball into the net, boring over time."

[Swiss.]

Lee Trundle I didn't say we wouldn't beat them. It's the manner in how we play. A point woud be a minimum from this game with Liverpool and Man U coming up.

[Sir Alf]

"""I think it will be safety first for the foreseeable."" Yes, that we definitely agree on :-) . Hope we can continue to improve our chances to goals ratio at the same time though. I read we were 19th in that category which, when not having the ball, much means you need to take your chances. Yesterday, Scamacca missed 2, possibly 3 that I would have thought he would score from ordinarily but we got the VAR/ref calls on the other goals so all was well in the end. Aguerd's introduction is what I'm looking forward to. Well Downes hopefully establishing himself too. Better technical players will hopefully see us less rooted in the ""attrition"" based style that is hard to watch and frustrating even when you win."

[BRANDED]

Improving skills and options are making us look better. Players are all looking generally happier so something is working. I think it will be safety first for the foreseeable.

[Sir Alf]

"Understand and tend to agree in part Branded. We did indeed beat some very good teams when sitting deep and only having 30% and that can indeed and probably will still be the approach against those teams ( rich 5 etc). But with pretty much every team cottoning on to our tactics and players strengths about 10 months back, most of the remaining teams and new additions ( Fulham etc ) press us high to deny space and can also sit deeper and pass around us too easily or at least keep the ball. I suppose, and hate to think this, we are not too dissimilar to Spurs under Conte but I watched their game and they still pass it better than us even though countering is their tactic too. It may just be down to having a better technical quality player on average in their squad ? Its just that even the ""lesser"" teams know to block us ( Soucek, Dawson etc) on set pieces ( albeit Fulham came unstuck on that yesterday), press us in midfield and high up as we struggle to pass at speed and through them. Equally most ( I mean so far all teams from 9 games except perhaps Forest) have been able to deny us possession and play around us. Even Silkbourg did it but fortunately lacked the quality upfront to take advantage. So I guess I am agreeing with ""horses for courses"" and playing differently depending on the team but I see precious little evidence yet of us being able to play a different way with dominating possession against any team? But, new players, Aguerd to come in etc. might / hopefully will see that change."

[twoleftfeet]

"I called for Moyes to be sacked after the Everton game. I am clearly a twat who knows nothing about football and I now withdraw my "" Moyes out "" request."

[BRANDED]

With the greatest respect Alf we have had 30% possession in games in the past and won them. I understand everybody wants to see us dominate and play lovely footy but not if we lose we don't so the issue is will the style of football we play get us winning? The answer is it might depend on who we are playing.

[RBshorty]

Great post Alf. (Verbal Diarrhoea is what old men do best.) Asking anyone to change their working philosophy over night is tough at best. Then expect them to hang their hat on it. Is nigh on impossible. Moyes had to deal with this when he turned up at ManU. He now got the same issue here with us.

[Sir Alf]

"factory seconds 2:27 Mon Oct 10 It does currently look like ""shoehorning"" the more technically gifted players into a ""risk averse"" system. I live in hope that Moyes and Nevin ( his chief tactician ) are looking to transition to a more expansive game based on keeping the ball? That said, Nevin is on ""Team Southgate"" for England and the style is not dissimilar and falls apart without the double Rice/Phillips pivot protection. I realise that Fulham's Marco Silva has not won anything of note and has seen mixed fortunes in his managerial appointments but he has Fulham playing a very dynamic system and lots of movement etc. They rely on Mitrovic to link it all up at the attacking end so they struggled to create enough after we woke up following the first 20 mins. But the tactics / system were good to watch. Not something I can see Moyes going for though. As I said, lets see what happens when Aguerd plays and pray we learn to keep the ball better."

[factory seconds]

"i think that's fair sir alf. so far the season has gone exactly as i expected. moyes is not a rank incompetent and knows with the attacking talent we have, if he can keep mistakes at the back to a minimum we should create enough chances to beat the teams that we're far better than on paper (at least at home), which is enough to keep him out of the firing line. it also gives us a shot at a trophy as the europa conference league is there for the taking given the quality of the opposition. but even when we're winning, it's a regression to a stodgy mean built on fundamentals and a professionally negative mindset. we prepare for the worst, mitigate the risks, while trying to exploit the mistakes the other team naively trying to knock the ball about makes. our approach play is either swing a cross in down the left or just hope paqueta pulls something out of thin air. i used to feel like moyes was doing the business to get a bunch of triers performing well above their level, but looking at our squad now it's becoming physically painful to see it being shoehorned into what is increasingly a bad fit, and one with a ceiling far lower than its potential."

[Sir Alf]

"Not one for brevity which will be a shock for many on here ;-) Here is my latest, self indulgent diatribe or ""sitting on the armchair blowing off expert's assessment"" of where Moyes has us just now. Take a deep drag on your crack pipe or swig of meths to get thru it. Most Premiership games are these days about those clique ""thin margins"". Even the poorer teams are not really ""poor"" they can pick up a foreigner or players that might not cost relatively what the rich 4 or 5 pay but can often be very decent and be blended by a tactical astute manager to be competitive. Fulham a good example, Brighton too. So back to those margins: Against Fulham, things went for us in terms of referee / VAR decisions ( btw, I could not see the ball change direction from Scamacca's slight brush of the ball from hand on his thigh or elbow hence not clear and obvious even if technically it may have touched ) and the penalty and even what looked like another ""brush"" from a bouncing ball onto Antonio's hand for the third. Another week some of them don't go for us or James scores rather than hitting our bar and we lose or draw. That said, in terms of chances we were clearly on top with Scamacca missing what should have been 2 more goals on another day. Where we were clear losers was possession again but more of that in a minute :-) Against Forest and Chelsea the opposite where the ""thin margins"" conspired to rob us of 4 points we could say? I think ( IMO ) we can now start to see the organisation and discipline returning in the team to where it was las t 2 seasons. Those early games without a proper CB pairing etc. we looked all at sea. New players making a difference now too and winning us games so some integration is happening. But. to obsess, belabour the point, our tactics and/or ability to keep the ball, resist the high press better ( even break through it) are the persisting problems to solve if we want to get up back around the top 6 again on a consistent basis. We didn't have that issue first 18 months after surviving when Moyes returned second time around. It was lockdown ( no away crowd helped I thought for our style ) and all teams felt they could attack us due to our previous years of struggle. Played into our counter attacking trap and we were very good at the fast counter with a long diagonal or pass thru to Antonio. Bowen and even Lombard :-) But, we were worked out last season ( many of us agree on that I think?) , we have not transitioned from it. Yes we can see some evidence of trying to pass it more but it tends to be ""safety first"" type passing back and forth across the back 4 from side to side or when midfield get it 4 out of 5 times it gets recycled back. We simply lack the movement/mobility and perhaps are not being coached to play through the press from the back and through the middle enough? It looks that way? Having the players to do that helps of course. Soucek is a good squad option and honest, hard working player but is a bit of a ""beanpole"", not that quick or mobile/athletic and technically limited in his passing. Coufal a tad too slow and again technically limited in passing. Benrahma decision making seems his issue and not seeing the pass or playing it and hence losing it too much. Johnson needs to improve his passing and of course Dawson / Zouma and even Oggy to a lesser extent are not ball playing CBs. Then you factor in the likes of Antonio ( 50p legs and feet) Fornals and Paqueta ( albeit in a less familiar advanced role he is getting used to ) and even Bowen giving up possession or holding onto to it too long at times. Passing stats for the best teams see all their players hitting the 90%+ quartile. We are near the bottom if not bottom of many passing stats. ( ok I know stats are only part of the story). So Moyes, Nevin, Nolan and Mckinley have to solve this IMO if we are to progress. It will probably require more investment / 2 or 3 additions on top of the huge outlay we just saw. You don't usually transform a team and style in one window? I am waiting to see what happens when a fit Aguerd appears in the team ( assuming he does return fully fit and not cursed with the infamous WHU CB career ending injury). He supposedly is quick and a ball playing CB who Moyes saw as the priority to build the team around from the back. But if we carry on as is and get dominated for possession by just about every other team, it seems inevitable our progress over the last 2 seasons will grind to a halt and see us very much in that mid table or lower, sometimes upper table bunch of teams that eventually after a number of years slide down and get relegated. Bit like we've been for 53 of the last 62 years I have followed us really :-( Apologies once more for the verbal diarrhoea."

[RBshorty]

Far we got a bit more about us than Moyes Everton. You would only take Fellaini out of that team. Rice. Bowen. Paqueta. Scamacca. All would make it into most of the so-call top six.

[Far Cough]

Have we become Everton MKII?

[Kaiser Zoso]

"Good point swiss, old china. But points on the board are a big factor in how a team plays, and how much of a risk can be taken. Winning is a habit as well. Another two wins this week and we'll have caught up on a really poor start."

[Lee Trundle]

"Swiss. 12:56 Mon Oct 10 ""We have beaten 3 pretty poor teams in a week. Wolves and Fulham with key players out. Fulham were even a bit unlucky. Let see against Southampton."" Erm... Southampton are arguably a worse team than the 2 you've mentioned above. The current form table would suggest they're much poorer."

[Swiss.]

We have beaten 3 pretty poor teams in a week. Wolves and Fulham with key players out. Fulham were even a bit unlucky. Let see against Southampton.

[Side of Ham]

IF Moyes manages to get these new players to work and also work in a plan b if plan a is not working then we could have a decent season. The fuck up was how long it took to get our major signings done this has effectively made the first couple of months like a preseason.

[nerd]

Moyes teams at Everton always finished strongly after starting poorly. Used hate it as they passed us around January

[nychammer]

"last year we made a couple of midfield signings (Vlasic, Kral) who offered literally nothing (hence us having to play Rice and Soucek in more or less every single fixture), not to mention the rather obvious positions we simply failed to stengthen in. We fell away last season for those reasons. This summer we've addressed a lot of that and its starting to come together, but it needs time and weve always given our managers that time. If we're still hovering around the relegation places at christmas then its a different story. One game at a time, lets see what we do against Fulham."

[Willtell]

"Talk like that will get you accused of being a lover of GSB. As it happens I think it shows up people as negative and 'stuck in a rut' fans incapable of reassessing the evidence before them. There were many reasons to hate GSB but they've mostly gone with no more gossip, record signings and European football."

[Manuel]

"''After all who's gonna replace him working under our owners?'' When are some going to move on from this cliched, unfounded crap that keeps getting rolled out? Where is the evidence or quotes that they are shit people to work for, etc? Anyone?? If anything ex-managers have only ever said they were good to work for and were supported, etc. Give it a fucking rest, it's pathetic and simply childish."

[jfk]

"It's ridiculous to turn against Moyes it's obvious now he's beggining to know our starting 11. It's all too easy to fuck the bloke off,in my opinion he needs time,after all who's gonna replace him working under our owners ? Under Moyes we turned into a decent team for the first time in a long,long time. Give the fella a break ffs."

[Sir Alf]

"Agree Manual that right side is one position where we don't have enough squad depth in terms of a quality alternative to Bowen. I suppose Antonio could be an option but it's a bit of ""robbing Peter to pay Paul""ù or whatever that saying is? Other areas that pop up where you think there could be improvements still are left back and another young forward but we are a lot better than where we were last season."

[El Scorchio]

I think you're right. That's obviously Bowen's place when he's fit (which maybe is why there's a rotating cast on the left) but on the face of it the others do seem to prefer it out there. I'd like to think that one or more of them could cover there adequately. I guess Antonio can as well if push comes to shove

[Manuel]

"El- Think we are one short right mid, the likes of Fornals, Benrahma, Cornet and even Antonio seem to prefer left side."