Moyes Out ( Released )

[Keep dreaming]

"Posted the same last year. Nothing has changed, except win don't win matches anymore. I'm fed up, we can do much better"

[Bexley Ironworks]

"I really don't get how people come to the conclusion that Sullivan is a good businessman. I thought he was a dirty little bastard who made his money out of porn and a joke of a newspaper, then ploughed a load of the proceeds into the London property market. A morally bankrupt person who lucked out."

[stubbo]

"It's all pretty straightforward really. - Sullivan is a terrible chairman (not tight, just terrible) and not fit for purpose in a modern football environment...nothing new - Moyes is a dinosaur who got away with it while the going was good, but can't adapt, can't accept any kind of constructive criticism and when his back's to the wall goes into full blown isolation mode, doubling down on his failing strategy. Plus cares more about himself than anything else...anything beyond that is symptomatic of those things. - Everyone else 'inside' of the club is largely a pawn in the soap opera, with very limited ability to cause any kind of meaningful change or to arrest the issues. So you have the perfect storm of a truly toxic major shareholder/director, and a truly toxic manager (who are fundamentally fans of each other). The only way to invoke change in that situation is wholesale unrest against the problems themselves...given to change director is nigh on impossible, all ire needs to be targeted at the manager...the risk of course that that atmosphere engulfs the club at a time when performances can't afford it. Whether our 'customer' base is sufficiently invested to organise in a way to be seen as a collective mass anymore is another question. It's obviously been diluted in recent years with the arrival of the 'new supporter'. It's remarkable that Everton, Leeds, Wolves and Forest are all shorter prices than we are for the drop."

[threesixty]

"Willtell I do think the very fact that his choice of ""well Known""ù managers implies after decades in the game, Sullivan still knows very little about football. And I think that backs up my theory that he relies on what his reports tell him. And if you've got his ear and are loyal to him he just believes what you're telling him. And it must be easy to make Sullivan believe something as he doesn't really know the business he's in (the stuff on the pitch). I just feel that's what Moyes has managed to do. I have never heard of a manager in the PL that has the record Moyes has and has not been sacked. It's unheard of. There are no major injuries or lack of money that you can bring to give a reason for this. It's pure ineptitude of management."

[Willtell]

It was Bill Kenwright that was Moyes Everton boss might have been stewie's point 360. The thing is your explanation could be correct but that doesn't absolve Sullivan's fault in not seeing the downgraded performances and poor value for money signings. The fault rests firmly at Sullivan's door and the excuse that there are no PL experienced managers available is a tantamount admission that he's looking in the wrong places for such a key workforce manager...

[threesixty]

"Stewie Not really inventing anything. I'm not disputing what the recent stories coming out are. I personally think it's true and we can see the end results on the pitch. But I'm just offering an explanation as to how some organisations are run and why a seemingly good business man doesn't react when their venture is going down the toilet. Sometimes they don't know what you think they know. He might know right now. But maybe it's just too late for him to act in his mind. So he's just gambling. Also the rumours of Moyes staying beyond relegation maybe just him trying to make sure players don't try to down tools and get the manager sacked. I dunno""¶"

[threesixty]

"LCJ Not sure where you have worked. But most CEO's and owners have no clue what their staff do on a day to day level or the issues that are going on. They don't have the time or the relationships below their direct reports. If their direct report is telling fibs how will they know otherwise? I think that's one of the reasons the director of football role has become a big deal in the bigger football clubs. It allows for a direct report with a different view on what's actually happening. It's also why some managers hate the director of football role , as it often opposes theirs and they lose their ultimate power."

[stewie griffin]

Bill WAINWRIGHT why do people waste time inventing stuff in their minds? you're being repeatedly told what's happening.

[Willtell]

I suspect there might be elements of that explanation 360 but any Chairman worth his salt would carefully monitor other sources. Like Opta stats that WHUFC must subscribe to. Moyes is definitely Sullivan's failure if Moyes relegated us.

[LJC]

You think us and the media all know what is going on inside Sullivan's business (a very successful business man) and yet he has no clue? Honestly?

[threesixty]

"LJC If that's at me , well I can't explain it any other way. Do you really think anyone would see a terminal decline on their business over 1.3yrs to the point of relegation and losing possibly hundreds of millions if they actually knew first hand what was happening? I don't even think Sulllivan is that crazy. I just don't think he realised how bad it is/was and was spun a story by Moyes. Seeing how Moyes loves all these podcasts about how great he is, and how convinced his interviewers are of him""¶ I can easily see Sullivan caught up in this facade."

[LJC]

You honestly believe that load of rubbish?

[threesixty]

"Honestly, I just think it's typical company stuff that happens all the time when you think about it. It's all about where the head of the company gets his information from. Typically Sullivan only speaks to Moyes about what's happening and they seem to have a good relationship. For the first few seasons Sullivan (who is understandably distracted with new partner etc) is getting good results without really being hands on. Over the last year I can imagine all he is hearing is Moyes' version of what's happening at the club. And he has nothing to challenge that version. Moyes will be saying everything in the dressing room is fine, we have some bad eggs etc Moyes will be blaming the results on disruptive characters and explaining to Sullivan that you need a firm hand to manage this stuff. Therefor e you can't give into the noise from players etc. they are just employees.. blah blah I bet Moyes has made it so that nothing happens at the club without his say so. And that the chairman can never get an unfiltered opinion of anything that's happening. I think Moyes had a similar relationship with Bill Wainright at Everton. The process is to shit on everyone below you and arse lick everyone above you. Unfortunately before the CEO can do anything meaningful the damage has been done. It's too late because the reality was hidden from him. That's why people like Abramovich are always at their businesses and have several lieutenants they can trust. They want the real picture. He had relationships with players directly like drogba, lampard etc. because you need to know the truth not just whatever bollocks your manager is telling you. I think Moyes' has taken advantage of Sullivan here. Bit like some carer that ends up swindling your gran or something""¶"

[North Bank]

"So his mates wife's friend's partner happens to be in a senior role at West Ham and his mate, who's West Ham, didn't hear about who this bloke was his wife, until they sat down in the pub? Then all we get is regurgitated stuff that we already knew regarding Moyes being an arrogant control freak, that only knows one way to play. For the record I was out in Spain last week and met an old mate from Mile End who bumped into Flynn Downes brother, who's apparently representing Flynn and is currently negotiating a new contract. Earth shattering stuff eh"

[El Scorchio]

"LeroysBoots 12:49 Completely agree. I'd have him back short term as well. It's clear the talent is there in the team (Paqueta, Scamacca) and it's just being held back. Just removing Moyes, by the sound of it, will cause a massive lift in morale and upturn in all player performances and results. In fact, I'd even bet the existing coaching staff given their frustrations with the manager would be able to really galvanise the players with a fresh approach they want to buy into. The key to having the best chance of staying up, clearly, is getting Moyes out of the club rather than doing nothing and crossing our fingers that a miracle will happen. It's obvious to all of us aside from the one person who can make the decision."

[Willtell]

That's the personnage we have for Sullivan JayrMPee but is that accurate? Is Sullivan going?

[JayeMPee]

Sullivan clearly couldn't give a damn at going out on a low and in disgrace since that is where he is heading. Can't believe his long time friend and partner David Gold would agree with him but then when did sullivan ever give a damn about others?

[stubbo]

"It's bound to be Warburton, if Paqueta and Scammacca are best he's ever seen. Nevin been with England, Nolan was at Bolton with Okocha, Valero was with Benitez all over the place (Liverpool, Inter, Napoli, Madrid)."

[Willtell]

Very good post Scorchio. The problem is most of us just can't see why someone like Sullivan is backing Moyes to come good after wasting so much money and a year of indifferent performances from the team Is it possible that Sullivan really is loyally supporting an employee that got so much right in the first 2 years?

[Pentonville]

"If the Arsenal rumours are true about them taking Rice and Paqueta, I want Moyes bollox on a plate. I already want to stick a ptichfork in his head but this will be it for me. I am fucking fuming and couple with these rumours of him running OUR club like this, I think we HAVE to do something at Southampton to scare him or show him that he needs to fuck off."

[LeroysBoots]

We constantly hear this crap about no alternatives I'd take Allardyce in a heartbeat until the end of the season Pay him a huge bonus to keep us up I'd also put Moyes on gardening leave until end of season then sack the cսnt

[SullyHammer]

"El Scorchio 12:45 Wed Mar 29 Agree with that. Sullivan hasn't sold the club yet and knows full well that if the club gets relegated, his pay out with be significantly lower. Moyes still has some sort of career ahead of him, so purposely taking West Ham down after spunking 200m will not look good on his CV, despite the successful two season prior. None of it makes sense. But I do feel there is some tug of war going on between Sullivan and Moyes because some managers have been sacked for much less this season."

[El Scorchio]

"'This is firmly at Sullivan's door, he needs to react but he won't because he is putting money before doing the right thing' Is he though? Because us getting relegated is going to cost him a hell of a lot more (hundreds of millions more) than removing the manager. Same as why i can't get on board with the idea he's taking us down out of spite as it's the equivalent of having an argument with his neighbour and then setting fire to his own house in the hope of burning down theirs too. There's just no logic behind it, particularly for someone so money obsessed. It's becoming clear he's either burying his head in the sand in the belief we will get out of it (as mentioned a fair few times) or just doesn't know what to do as an alternative. Unless Moyes somehow has something huge on him that he's threatening to reveal if he gets fired? (Now there's a wild unlikely theory) Either way though, it's pathetic."

[LeroysBoots]

"I was at the Villa game and watched Moyes on the touchline He was occasionally approached by Nevin but Moyes just dismissed him with a flick of his hand. He is isolated, and is in control of everything hence the awful substitutions he makes, but he clearly doesn't see what others see This is firmly at Sullivan's door, he needs to react but he won't because he is putting money before doing the right thing"

[El Scorchio]

"Could be Warburton. It was reported somewhere (maybe someone on here mentioned) that Moyes was unhappy with him being brought in against his wishes so there would be animosity there. However if Moyes has absolute power as is claimed then how did Warburton get hired? Sort of doesn't tally up. Either way, as long as this continues and he's not removed, Sullivan is sleepwalking this club toward relegation."

[LJC]

Self confessed chicken strangler?