Moyes Out ( Released )

[Keep dreaming]

"Posted the same last year. Nothing has changed, except win don't win matches anymore. I'm fed up, we can do much better"

[ironsofcanada]

"Crassus 6:42 Thu Apr 20 Again in terms of real money to buy and keep players, the ""draw potential"" means a massive amount less than TV money. So we all know that relegation is an even bigger deal these days. But I still don't neccesarily agree that with Southampton with being that much different, though. You said equal not I. Your quote was ""an entirely different proposition"" which is what I disagreed with. And still do, looking at historical league standings (including beyond the 00s) and the fact that Premiership TV money can assuage a lot of financial ills, if handled even half-way competently."

[Crassus]

"Swindon Yep and I alluded to that with the Payet reference, desperate snatching of defeat from the jaws of victory Swiss Quite correct, some bright spark evaluated the league positions had blatant refereeing errors been subject to VAR - we made the CL Oh and Leicester away, who would not only not won the league but not made the CL either IOC Sorry mate, you've lost me, I didn't mention relegation but administration and if you believe that Southampton have equal draw potential to us then fair enough, but I disagree Oh well, work to attend before the game - tense atmosphere here in Crassus Towers"

[Swiss.]

swindon hammer 6:21 Thu Apr 20 If we'd had VAR that season we'd have made CL. We had some a lot of bad decisions go against us. Man U away springs to mind if just one.

[swindon hammer]

"The mention below about missed opportunities with regards to the CL, many might forget that that also applies to the 15/16 season. With the romance of the last ever game at UP the defeats either side of that game at home to Swansea and away to Stoke cost us a Champions League place. Win both of them and we would have finished 4th. A huge missed opportunity considering we had a lot of momentum and one of the best players in the world during that season."

[ironsofcanada]

"Crassus 5:16 Thu Apr 20 There were in adminstration in 2009. We were last relegated after that. I would not say were recently relegated. Two years is not ""regular"" for me either. But that aside. The TV money dwarfs so much of the other revenue that I dont see how their proposition is that much different. If were better run we could certainly always be in the fight for Europe. But if we don't have the money to take things up a level we probably will never retain any absolutely elite players we obtain. And therefore there will always be a ceiling."

[Lee Trundle]

"""Isn't it incredible that West Ham are expected to win the European Conference League?""ù ""ì Moyes No really, when you're supposedly the best team left in it and are the 5th highest spenders in world football. He obviously can't cope with the expectation that comes with a top 8 team."

[Crassus]

"But IoC you miss the point Southampton had been recently bought for £15m from administrators, they were, are and always will be at best a lower PL club of limited scope - they were taken to regular European places and financial security If that is not success I don't know what is? No one suggests that the model would take them to the title We are an entirely different proposition"

[ironsofcanada]

"Crassus 5:01 Thu Apr 20 My point was that great management can get you so far. For Southamption it was on the edge or just inside the European positions. If your goal is to stay there, the model is perfect. But if you want to go beyond that, you need players like van Dijk, Mane, Shaw etc. (and Rice). The model did not allow them to keep them."

[Crassus]

"ironsofcanada Sorry mate, trying to find the point you are making in that? Moreover how it has anything to do with us and Rice Southampton having sold inordinate talent and were in a strong position relevant to their size and financially set from recent administration and sale for £15m My previous point was that individual player sales will not undo Brighton's model but losing key executives/ethos would But back to us and Rice, who knows? I will say had we not dropped a couple of bollocks we very well could have made the CL twice in recent seasons, that would have offered a direction of travel that may well have retained Rice and Payet before him"

[Crassus]

"ED - had to Google the bloke, not Les but Nicola Cortese, a Swiss/Italian banker, a details man He brokered the deal for the Liebherr family to buy the club and stayed on Mr Liebherr died and his daughter inherited the lot, you may remember her - a right lump, single but very wealthy, there was discussion on here about would you/could you, for the money? There was a Tetra Pak family involvement but the principals were the Liebherrs and Cortese"

[Bernie]

"If we'd have won the EL last year, got into the CL this year and spent the £200m odd a bit better. Then MAYBE Rice may have reconsidered. But we fucked it, well Moyes fucked it by his total fuck up in the Jan transfer window last season"

[ironsofcanada]

"Crassus 4:10 Thu Apr 20 But again, even with that great work the ceiling was 8th, 6th, 7th, 8th. Their Europa League record in there was: out in the qualifying round one year and eliminated in the group stage the next. If we had better league campaign this year and finished 8th or even 7th, or probably even 6th, do you think it would change keeping Rice?"

[Eerie Descent]

"Was it Les Reed, Cras?"

[Crassus]

"Nagel That mate is exactly what happened at Southampton and they fucked it up gloriously It started when the gentleman billionaire who founded, from memory, Tetra Pak, bought the club and had a vision He then brought in a DoF, name escapes me but how we could do with him, who set up what Brighton have emulated The bloke changed everything from introducing succession management across the executive suite, future proofing transfer dealing, intelligent youth development of a unique area Micromanagement even so far as having their players mattresses individually made to the physicality of each player. When they played away and stayed in hotels, the mattresses went too - that's attention to detail based upon data analysis It all went tits when the owner died, his daughter inherited the club but held no interest. She felt honour bound to continue her father's work but focused upon their core business so placed a CEO in her place over the head of the DoF Fucked off with meddling, warnings were issued, then publicly, without the interference desisting, the DoF walked - the whole edifice collapsed rapidly Key back room staff left and one by one the clubs top players. The whole thing perpetuated until the crown jewels were gone, unreplaced. The youth development imploded and at which point the daughter sold the club and finally got out - they have never recovered and have been upon an inevitable slide since An example of how losing players is not the critical issue within a structure, losing the key components is"

[Side of Ham]

"onsideman, I grasp it, it will get undone down the line as football is greedy and the bigger brands will find a way to scupper it even if it means their copy of it""¶..people in football have a small window of opportunity to make lots of money""¶.money the big clubs can fork out to stay on top of things""¶.this goes right through the levels and beyond just playing staff""¶."

[ironsofcanada]

Nagel 3:41 Thu Apr 20 True the drop was pretty pronounced after the 2017 sale But even under the owners that brought them up they made the bottom couple spots of European football a couple years were very close a couple years. They never got that Champions League Holy Grail and unfortunately these day you need good ownership structure and a lot of money from somewhere to do that consistently. Or all your good work gets sold off eventually.

[Nagel]

"Often hear people saying that Brighton are the new Southampton and it won't last, but Southampton have changed ownership twice since 2017. New owners will nearly always change the existing infrastructure, so that is most likely why they stopped being a top 8 side, and stopped bringing in managers and players with great potential."

[swindon hammer]

Brighton are well run club who have obviously got a good structure with a lot of intelligent people working behind the scenes. Much like Southampton it probably won't last and they will be back to fighting relegation within 2 years but credit to them for what's happening at the moment.

[onsideman]

"I shouldn't bother Crassus, seems Side isn't able to grasp the concept"

[Crassus]

"Side The bit you are ignoring is that individual player acquisition per se is not the whole Individuals are bought for specific roles, beyond, data analysed around physical, persona and background This then transposed over their youth development abilities and specific training techniques Individuals are effectively selected upon base material and then re-engineered to suit the club The whole club is structured and symbiotic - Few have that layered expertise and integration When the world is looking at one market, they look at others, they seek potential players from areas being ignored - a classic case being the generally unexpected emergence of an Ecuadorian under 21 side and Brighton's subsequent success in that market Loss of individual target players as you describe will not impact Brighton, the damage, real damage will be by eliminated key components from the structure and they have lost two - that is the way you break them, but they will know that already"

[BRANDED]

"What data brings you is much more than unearthing good players at a decent price. Its about seeing the best probabilities in the future for you. When all clubs adopt data in the same way then all clubs would be equal but like money they never will be equal. So, for the moment Brighton will punch above their money weight. Depends how far and how long until the players want a bigger slice."

[Side of Ham]

"What you are forgetting though is the selling club""¶.they see Brighton making enquiries the big clubs get let known""¶.Brightons investment is just big clubs pocket money""¶.they will even do it to muck up the consistency of Brightons success""¶."

[onsideman]

Very true Nagel

[onsideman]

"There's WAY more money in gambling than there is in football and starlizard has been going for 20 odd years now at the front of that field. They even have a sports integrity arm now that the big betting companies use to help them with inside betting or match fixing concerns. As far as players having better options are concerned, the key now is that they offer a pathway that the big clubs simply can't. I dont think anyone thinks MacAllister or Ferguson will finish their careers at Brighton, that's not the point. Ferguson was courted by more than one club but chose Brighton for that very reason by the way. No one is saying that they are going to be perpetually dining at the top table or are future CL winners but you need to credit him with a little bit more intelligence than you currently are"

[Nagel]

"The point of using data isn't to unearth gems that other clubs don't know about yet. It's to work out which players would fit a particular role best within a particular team, formation, tactics, etc. so if some big club comes along and gazumps a deal for whoever Brighton are going for then they could well end up with an expensive flop. The whole thing needs to be holistic as well, so there's always continuity when managers and coaches change."