West Ham vs Nott'm Forest | League | 2.11.24 | Predictions & Lineup

[stubbo-admin]

So what do we think this week.  Didn't think much of Forest until I looked into their team and they look to have some pretty talented players and setup in a way that could well be Lopetegui's kryptonite!  Pacey wingers, sit deep, hit on the counter...all things that have fucked us repeatedly this season.

Plus Chris Wood on form who always gets one against us.

Anyway, gonna stay optimistic and predict a 1-0 to us, but at this point would be happy with a draw.

Team I'd pick:

GK Fabianski

RB Wan Bissaka
RCB Todibo
LCB Kilman
LB Emerson

RCM Soucek
CDMRodriguez
LCM Alvarez

RF Bowen
CF Paqueta or Ings or Antonio
LW Summerville

I'd be tempted to play Paqueta at CF...he's no worse than Antonio at keeping the ball, Antonio won't out-muscle Milenkovic, and he'd be more likely to play in the wide players (plus with the three that finished in midfield against Man Utd, we lack someone that can pass).

What say the rest of you?

[Rossal]

Ironically it was the much maligned Soucek that was brought on at Half Time that helped change the game amongst others for the better in both performance and result. Must have been yet another uncanny coincidence of his of when he does and doesn't play for us with often positive outcomes at both ends of the pitch. Fuck knows how we've managed to wing it as a Team effectively playing with 10 men for all his 218 appearances and counting for us and contributing to 45 goals and 1 Trophy in the cabinet as a predominant Defensive Midfielder. 





 

I couldn't make the game on sunday but spoke to plenty who did, quite a few mentioned Todibo......Ings got quite a few mentions understabdably.....loads mentioned Summerville. No one mentioned Soucek. Was on for 45 mins..... 1 shot, 0 tackles, 22 passes, 0 through balls, 0 chances created......changed the game though. 

Lets just forget he started against Spurs, the shambles at Fulham and the 5-1 up at Anfield.  

When he joined he was brilliant, but the last 18 months he has chipped in with some goals but the rest of his game is terrible. 

I said months ago I am not sure he would start in any other team in the league and I'd argue that point now. What team would he get into?   I'd have JWP over him and i wish we kept Downes over him aswell. 

And in that 45 minutes of nothingness you are trying your level best to paint out regarding Soucek, as per...

22 passes (because that's his biggest weakness) of which he completed 86.4% - 1 pass of which was part of a successful slick move that led to Summerville scoring our 1st goal from

5 headers 

4 Clearances

2 Interceptions

1 Shot

But yes, he only contributed to 22 passes (which you probably suspected were all aimed towards your mates in the stands)

It was a night and day contribution in Midfield compared to the shambolic pass gifting of the 1st Half horror show made by the rest of them including Rodriguez, Paqueta, Soler, Alvarez.

As I say, Soucek true contribution at times really is under appreciated and noticed properly. He contributes far more to our cause since he arrived than some fans really give him credit for. Not me though Tommy, I notice the monster effort and outcomes to produce for us in both halves of the pitch. 

34 Goals - 11 Assists and a huge amount of headers, blocks, tackles and interceptions whilst covering a ridiculous amount of ground most weeks in 218 appearances and counting... 

That the whole point, I dont want a prem midfielder who can't pass......how can you try get into a more posession based style with a bloke in the centre of the park of can't pass and is too scared to show for the ball. 

If he gets 10 league goals i'll buy you a shirt with Soucek on the back. 

[Massive Attack]

In his 4 full seasons playing for us he's twice managed to score double figures with 10 outfield goals in each season. That's better than many Premier League specialist Strikers would hope to reach and Souceks achieved it by predominantly playing in very defensive set-ups as a Defensive Midfielder who also gets through a dog of work defending for the Team. He's arguably 1 of the best goal scoring Defensive Midfielders in the League.

And he's on course to score another 10 this season with 2 goals already with only a quarter of the season gone. 

He's been contributing to goals for fun all his career in fact, having scored 40 and assisted 13 for Slavia Prague before us and scored 14 goals and 5 Assists in 76 appearances as the Captain of his Country Czech Rep. 

[Massive Attack]

Ironically it was the much maligned Soucek that was brought on at Half Time that helped change the game amongst others for the better in both performance and result. Must have been yet another uncanny coincidence of his of when he does and doesn't play for us with often positive outcomes at both ends of the pitch. Fuck knows how we've managed to wing it as a Team effectively playing with 10 men for all his 218 appearances and counting for us and contributing to 45 goals and 1 Trophy in the cabinet as a predominant Defensive Midfielder. 




 

I couldn't make the game on sunday but spoke to plenty who did, quite a few mentioned Todibo......Ings got quite a few mentions understabdably.....loads mentioned Summerville. No one mentioned Soucek. Was on for 45 mins..... 1 shot, 0 tackles, 22 passes, 0 through balls, 0 chances created......changed the game though. 

Lets just forget he started against Spurs, the shambles at Fulham and the 5-1 up at Anfield.  

When he joined he was brilliant, but the last 18 months he has chipped in with some goals but the rest of his game is terrible. 

I said months ago I am not sure he would start in any other team in the league and I'd argue that point now. What team would he get into?   I'd have JWP over him and i wish we kept Downes over him aswell. 

And in that 45 minutes of nothingness you are trying your level best to paint out regarding Soucek, as per...

22 passes (because that's his biggest weakness) of which he completed 86.4% - 1 pass of which was part of a successful slick move that led to Summerville scoring our 1st goal from

5 headers 

4 Clearances

2 Interceptions

1 Shot

But yes, he only contributed to 22 passes (which you probably suspected were all aimed towards your mates in the stands)

It was a night and day contribution in Midfield compared to the shambolic pass gifting of the 1st Half horror show made by the rest of them including Rodriguez, Paqueta, Soler, Alvarez.

As I say, Soucek true contribution at times really is under appreciated and noticed properly. He contributes far more to our cause since he arrived than some fans really give him credit for. Not me though Tommy, I notice the monster effort and outcomes to produce for us in both halves of the pitch. 

34 Goals - 11 Assists and a huge amount of headers, blocks, tackles and interceptions whilst covering a ridiculous amount of ground most weeks in 218 appearances and counting... 

[Rossal]

Maybe we need to reassess Soucek's role in this Lopetegui side considering the aim is now to play further up the pitch? I think under Moyes having very fast forward players to counter meant that Soucek didnt really work. But seeing him in the second half against Man Utd, he was quite impressive.

I saw him drop back into CD positions sometimes and in the middle he seemed a bit "Rodri like". Controlled the ball well and allowed us to keep better control of the game. Maybe this is really what he should be doing for us? 

I know some fans love West Ham as the Moyes counter attacking club because it's a bit like a dopamine hit to be relentlessly defending for most of the game and then get those key Bowen/Kudus moments. That probably sticks in peoples brains more than lots of midfield based possession football. People seem to get bored of "tiki taka" in England at least.

But I think we really need to develop that side of our game to become a top 6 club. It's the glaringly obvious problem at West Ham. Moyes avoided it, but even after a trophy we are still back to the same issue. I think it's a coaching thing that takes time and nothing to do with the players tbh. I think Antonio has alluded to the fact that its just not in our DNA to play like that and it will take time.


 

I tend to agree.  I think Soucek at least seems to have the intelligence to play positionally in midfield, to keep his passes simple, and to understand the space and tactics at play.

Lopetegui also seems to have recognised he's not the guy to stick in at number 10.  At the moment I'd say he's our best player in terms of consistent performance.  I'd have him in over Rodri(guez).  But our midfield lacks an energetic number 8.  Alvarez is closest but is a bit of a headless chicken and his lack of pace gets him yellow cards with tackles he can't quite make.

What we're doing currently frankly doesn't rely on a number 10 (creative or otherwise)...we're not looking for space in behind, but to play in front of the defence and work an opening through the wings...so Soucek fits the bill well, and I remain hopeful that when he's played centrally, Soler will too (who seems to be slightly more adept on the ball and happy to put a challenge in/press, but not tryign to look for the worldie pass every time he gets it).

If he was intelligent as a midfielder he would not reguarly touch the ball the least or make the least amount of passes.  If he understood spaces and tactics he wouldn't hide up front when we are trying to build attacks. He would also play closer to Rodriguez and Paqueta when we have the ball. Our midfield gaps are why we are shit on the ball and keep getting caught on transition. 

He isn't even in the top 5 for consistent performances. To say he is best is astounding imo. 

[Rossal]

Ironically it was the much maligned Soucek that was brought on at Half Time that helped change the game amongst others for the better in both performance and result. Must have been yet another uncanny coincidence of his of when he does and doesn't play for us with often positive outcomes at both ends of the pitch. Fuck knows how we've managed to wing it as a Team effectively playing with 10 men for all his 218 appearances and counting for us and contributing to 45 goals and 1 Trophy in the cabinet as a predominant Defensive Midfielder. 


 

I couldn't make the game on sunday but spoke to plenty who did, quite a few mentioned Todibo......Ings got quite a few mentions understabdably.....loads mentioned Summerville. No one mentioned Soucek. Was on for 45 mins..... 1 shot, 0 tackles, 22 passes, 0 through balls, 0 chances created......changed the game though. 

Lets just forget he started against Spurs, the shambles at Fulham and the 5-1 up at Anfield.  

When he joined he was brilliant, but the last 18 months he has chipped in with some goals but the rest of his game is terrible. 

I said months ago I am not sure he would start in any other team in the league and I'd argue that point now. What team would he get into?   I'd have JWP over him and i wish we kept Downes over him aswell. 

[ragingbull]

I'll take a draw they seem to be lucky against us.
 

[stubbo-admin]

Maybe we need to reassess Soucek's role in this Lopetegui side considering the aim is now to play further up the pitch? I think under Moyes having very fast forward players to counter meant that Soucek didnt really work. But seeing him in the second half against Man Utd, he was quite impressive.

I saw him drop back into CD positions sometimes and in the middle he seemed a bit "Rodri like". Controlled the ball well and allowed us to keep better control of the game. Maybe this is really what he should be doing for us? 

I know some fans love West Ham as the Moyes counter attacking club because it's a bit like a dopamine hit to be relentlessly defending for most of the game and then get those key Bowen/Kudus moments. That probably sticks in peoples brains more than lots of midfield based possession football. People seem to get bored of "tiki taka" in England at least.

But I think we really need to develop that side of our game to become a top 6 club. It's the glaringly obvious problem at West Ham. Moyes avoided it, but even after a trophy we are still back to the same issue. I think it's a coaching thing that takes time and nothing to do with the players tbh. I think Antonio has alluded to the fact that its just not in our DNA to play like that and it will take time.

 

I tend to agree.  I think Soucek at least seems to have the intelligence to play positionally in midfield, to keep his passes simple, and to understand the space and tactics at play.

Lopetegui also seems to have recognised he's not the guy to stick in at number 10.  At the moment I'd say he's our best player in terms of consistent performance.  I'd have him in over Rodri(guez).  But our midfield lacks an energetic number 8.  Alvarez is closest but is a bit of a headless chicken and his lack of pace gets him yellow cards with tackles he can't quite make.

What we're doing currently frankly doesn't rely on a number 10 (creative or otherwise)...we're not looking for space in behind, but to play in front of the defence and work an opening through the wings...so Soucek fits the bill well, and I remain hopeful that when he's played centrally, Soler will too (who seems to be slightly more adept on the ball and happy to put a challenge in/press, but not tryign to look for the worldie pass every time he gets it).

[fraser]

"Soucek, Rodri like*

I take it you mean like Rodri at the moment who can't run cause he's minus a knee.. 

[threesixty]

Maybe we need to reassess Soucek's role in this Lopetegui side considering the aim is now to play further up the pitch? I think under Moyes having very fast forward players to counter meant that Soucek didnt really work. But seeing him in the second half against Man Utd, he was quite impressive.

I saw him drop back into CD positions sometimes and in the middle he seemed a bit "Rodri like". Controlled the ball well and allowed us to keep better control of the game. Maybe this is really what he should be doing for us? 

I know some fans love West Ham as the Moyes counter attacking club because it's a bit like a dopamine hit to be relentlessly defending for most of the game and then get those key Bowen/Kudus moments. That probably sticks in peoples brains more than lots of midfield based possession football. People seem to get bored of "tiki taka" in England at least.

But I think we really need to develop that side of our game to become a top 6 club. It's the glaringly obvious problem at West Ham. Moyes avoided it, but even after a trophy we are still back to the same issue. I think it's a coaching thing that takes time and nothing to do with the players tbh. I think Antonio has alluded to the fact that its just not in our DNA to play like that and it will take time.
 

[Massive Attack]

I'm still hopeful that in time both Soler and Paqueta regain the kind of form I know they're capable of to displace him in Midfield but in the meantime, Soucek starts in the Team for me. Whether he's chipping in with goals, being a part of moves leading to goals, or stopping attacks at the other end, he's still very much important to our side and that showed in games such as Man Utd on the weekend, Ipswich or Palace and Brentford away.

[Lato]

Not a good hunting ground for us in the last 10 years. The infamous 5-0 drubbing in 2014 and 1-0 and 2-0 defeats in the last two seasons. I would love to snatch a point but, can't see it. I hope I am wrong but, Forest 2 West Ham 0.

[Sir Alf]

Its true Massive that he contributed to the half time turnaround but we can also mention many defeats where he has gone missing too and I think ideally we would have a better alternative. Im not really sure what Soucek is? In Moyesball, low block tactics he was an effective CDM who could also contribute offensively ti a team that relied more on set pieces.  Its in a team that wants to play thru teams and defend counter attacks he comes up short. But his attitude and physical presence and height has meant him being better than Soler and Paqueta, Rodruiguez and even Alvarez on occasions. He needs to be upgraded especially now at or approaching 30 years of age but a great impact sub in the squad.  So for now ( this season ) he is going to get a lot of time on the pitch unless we pull off a recruitment miracle in the poor availability Jan window with a “peanuts” level budget.

Like a lot of players ( not just our team), they can play as a sub and make a good, positive contribution but when started in games can be anonymous or poor.  It was a change of tactics / formation and Summerville, Todibo and Soucek coming on that saw us do so much better 2nd half against the Mancs. We just cannot get a team set up ( selections, roles etc) that works for 90 mins without wholesale changes.  For me its simply that we fell short on recruitment and hence Lop plays a set up and tactics that ate flawed for the squad he has available.  

if he starts with the 11 that played 2nd half last week , it may not work because Forest themselves play an entirely different way. They will let us have the ball and be more like Spurs and look to punish us with fast breaks.  Soucek was removed in the Spurs game along with a couple of others and was remived in other games after starting when we got overrun on the transitions ( counter attacks) by teams.

We urgently IMHO need Caicedo, Bissouma, Gravenburch etc type profile of player in the squad to give us energy, pace, legs. We might need another central midfield replacement with similar profile even because what us patently clear to me ( opinion only of course or observation whatever we might want to call it ) we cannot press teams in midfield and cannot cope with fast counters.

In short, unless Lop gets us playing a bit deeper and tempers the forward positioning on Wan Bissaka and Emerson, the rest of this season we will continue to debate / discuss the midfield shortfalls, game by game trying to work out who should start.  Its a case if the poverbial “ deckchairs on the Titanic” if Lop does not change tactics. So continued frustration is what I see until next summer when Steidten has another chance to rectify the problem. Of course, if things get worse before they get better it may be with a new coach and if things turn to shite this season it will be with a new coach and technical ditector. The latter scenario doesnt bare thinking about, Diddy Dave and Will Salthouse back in charge of recruitment

[Massive Attack]

Agree with much of that Martillo. No one would say he doesn't lack a lot of quality passing but then again that just isn't his game.

His strengths have mainly been battling well for the ball wherever he is on the pitch without being a dirty cսnt (instead of regularly being on the end of it with the multiple scars to prove it). His ghosting in to the Box is also top drawer for someone who isn't a specialist attacking midfielder. As the commentators regularly and rightly call out about him "being in the right place, at the right time".

I do think far too much is made of his passing though as his main role in the Team when he isn't scoring, is winning the ball back before giving to those who are in the side to perform that role I.e. The Paquetas, Kudus and Rice's (when he was here) of the world. 

What is interesting though since the start of the new season under Lopetegui is a real conscious effort from Soucek to improve his passing game and there are signs of it improving. I mentioned recently his passing stats are that above Paqueta even though they've both been playing in very similar positions for most of the season. But also he's actually played a role in two recent slick build up to our goals playing his part in quickly 1 touch passing. See both the Brentford goal he eventually scored and also the Summerville goal where he played a part in that move. I also remember him winning back the ball before playing an inch perfect pass for Bowen to race on too for our 1st goal vs Ipswich. Encouraging signs for me he can play a part in slick passing moves leading to goals in a Lopetegui possession based Team. 

I feel he deserves a lot more respect for the work he actually does which I feel often goes unappreciated or indeed unnoticed for much of the evidence I've recently pointed out on this thread. 

[Mex Martillo]

Soucek is an intelligent player, good football brain and understanding of the game. Obviously he has some skill on the ball, but he is lacking in that department. The worst part of his game is passing and yes that's not the best for a team that wants to hold possession.
His strengths are he reads the game and knows where to be to get the ball, so he is good at stopping attacks, being in the right place to score, winning headers in defense and attack. Soucek is one of the best at this in our squad and up with the best in the Premier.
The question I guess is can we afford to have other players move the ball forward and Soucek just poping up where needed in defense and attack?  Do we have a better (in form) player that can bring more than Soucek? I don't think we do at the moment.
On an up grade from Soucek. I never understood why we didn't go in for McTominay

[Massive Attack]

Ironically it was the much maligned Soucek that was brought on at Half Time that helped change the game amongst others for the better in both performance and result. Must have been yet another uncanny coincidence of his of when he does and doesn't play for us with often positive outcomes at both ends of the pitch. Fuck knows how we've managed to wing it as a Team effectively playing with 10 men for all his 218 appearances and counting for us and contributing to 45 goals and 1 Trophy in the cabinet as a predominant Defensive Midfielder. 

 

[Sir Alf]

Ive obssessed since 2022 about the need to upgrade on Soucek  as a starter. This season I was hopimg the addition of Rodruiguez and Soler would mean we would see him as more of an impacr sub if we needed to go direct chasing a game.  The reality is we look to have failed dismally with our central midfield recruitment. That area and striker are the negatives of summer “strengthening” from Steidten and Lop.  The others look pretty decent. So far anyway.  For Lops tactics, we recruited the wrong profile of player. Better technically than Soucek but still lacking the pace/ legs to deal with the intensity and speed of the Prem especially playing a high line with advanced wing backs. 

Paquera cannot be risked as a no 10 and was actually better as a no 6 or 8 deeper like at Lyon his best spell in Europe.  He’s decent or was at getting his body in fromt of the ball and holding off opponents to get and protect the ball and distributing from deep.  But not sure hecan be risked there either. 

But Rossal has a point, Soucek can often be a passenger and like playing with 10. Then again Paqueta , Soler have been worse as the game passes them by and in Paquetas case he gets dispossessed or gives ot away with a poor pass far too often causing us to concede.  

Soucek keeps trying to his credit and can give us a physical presence to get around and a outstretched leg tackle now and then, decent at helping defending corners and able to sometimes get on the end if a set piece. Not a great contribution but again highlighting the poor CM recruitment. So poor that he’s sometimes actually more effective than Rodruiguez and definitely Soler so far although the later has yet to play in his proper position as a number 10.  But for fast play and breaks by the opposition etc, Soucek, Rodriguez, Paqueta, Solet and even Alvarez are all left wanting.  IMHO of course.

[fraser]

Have no idea what to expect again, defence and front three are surely definite, just the midfield where nobody is a stand out so could be any three. 

[Massive Attack]

It didn't say that specifically, but regardless there's countless of times where we do win Away games in any Competition when he starts games. In fact there's  evidence to prove he not only helps the Team to win and keep clean sheets but he also scores in such victories too since he's been a West Ham player. 

Ok sorry for not including shit carling cup games. I am not saying we don't win....I am saying based on his performances the last year or so you can't expect to win when he starts away from home.  It really isn't hard to fathom... 

Freiburg Away in Europe and Brighton Away in the League so 2 more wins he also started in matches since last season to today. So 9 Away victories in all competitions since last season, scoring in 5 of them. That's a really good record.

[Fauxstralian]

I am going to be optimistic and think this is one of those situations when a team sneaks up with some great results and then everyone notices them.
Resulting in a crushing home defeat when they are expected to win
Hopefully the doubts over Gibbs-White, Anderson and Wood are NOTHING TRIVIAL

Hopefully Loppy has realised that playing with 2 defenders and the full backs playing as wandering inside forwards in the other half is suicidal and we revert to the structure of last weeks second half

[Rossal]

It didn't say that specifically, but regardless there's countless of times where we do win Away games in any Competition when he starts games. In fact there's  evidence to prove he not only helps the Team to win and keep clean sheets but he also scores in such victories too since he's been a West Ham player. 

Ok sorry for not including shit carling cup games. I am not saying we don't win....I am saying based on his performances the last year or so you can't expect to win when he starts away from home.  It really isn't hard to fathom... 

[Massive Attack]

It didn't say that specifically, but regardless there's countless of times where we do win Away games in any Competition when he starts games. In fact there's  evidence to prove he not only helps the Team to win and keep clean sheets but he also scores in such victories too since he's been a West Ham player. 

5 goals, 3 clean sheets in our previous 7 victories in the past year alone ain't a bad record at all.

[Rossal]

 

Or Burnley v West Ham when he scored the match winner last season, or when we won away at Wolves, or scoring a screamer in the win at Goodison, or when he scored in our win at the Emirates against Arsenal at Christmas, or indeed when we won away at Spurs with him playing all match and starting in all of them. And that's just within the last year. Fucking useless Czech cսnt. 

 

How many of them did we play well in? thats the point....... 

Rossal:

You just cannot expect to win a game of football away from home with Soucek starting.....


I thought that was the point?

Yeah in the prem mate, not Lincoln away 

[Massive Attack]

Hummm, perhaps I shouldn't mention Palace v West Ham our only away win this season...

 

Or Burnley v West Ham when he scored the match winner last season, or when we won away at Wolves, or scoring a screamer in the win at Goodison, or when he scored in our win at the Emirates against Arsenal at Christmas, or indeed when we won away at Spurs with him playing all match and starting in all of them. And that's just within the last year. Fucking useless Czech cսnt. 

 

How many of them did we play well in? thats the point....... 

Rossal:

You just cannot expect to win a game of football away from home with Soucek starting.....


I thought that was the point?

[Rossal]

I forgot to add Soucek also scoring the only goal of the game in a 0-1 win in a banana skin fixture away at Lincoln in the Cup to go with the rest of that lot within the past year.

In 7 Away victories he starts in all of them, he scores in 5 of them and away wins against 3 tough London Derbies.

Lincoln away! haha fuck sake 

[Rossal]

Hummm, perhaps I shouldn't mention Palace v West Ham our only away win this season...

 

Or Burnley v West Ham when he scored the match winner last season, or when we won away at Wolves, or scoring a screamer in the win at Goodison, or when he scored in our win at the Emirates against Arsenal at Christmas, or indeed when we won away at Spurs with him playing all match and starting in all of them. And that's just within the last year. Fucking useless Czech cսnt. 

 

 

How many of them did we play well in? thats the point....... large part of the reason why we're shit and why the midfield is so shit is because of him. 

Spurs, Everton Burnley off top of my head we were utter dogshit