How can Luis Guilherme be bad?

[threesixty]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/arti ... 247xjg1y8o

From the BBC article.

Rival fans used to mock Palmeiras' academy, singing that they had never won the Copa Sao Paulo, Brazil's premier youth competition.Those times are long gone.Not only have Palmeiras won the 'Copinha', as the tournament is affectionately known, twice (2022 and 2023), but they have also established themselves as the hottest talent factory in Brazilian football.Over the past few years, the Sao Paulo-based giants have produced and sold stars such as Chelsea-bound Estevao Willian (£29m), Real Madrid's Endrick(£28.5m), West Ham's Luiz Guilherme (£25.5m), Nottingham Forest's Danilo(£16m), and Shakhtar Donetsk's Kevin (£8m, all fees including add-ons).They have all helped Palmeiras cement their status as the most successful Brazilian team of the past decade while generating massive revenue.


This club really fucks things up doesnt it? 

[Mad Ferret]

Rossal, ignore Gay Wank.

He probably just fancies you.

[Rossal]

Rossal, Scarles is older than Guilherme and has been at the club for 10 years under a lot of different managers.

so we should sell him, right?

What on earth you going on about?

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

That's fair, but then Caicedo cost £4m which is a fee you'd expect as one for the future. For £25m you would expect far more from him than what he has shown/ had the chance to show. 

Sometimes for me the 'settling' stuff gets used far too easy as an excuse. There are many players who come from shit leagues, shit countries etc and hit the ground running. 

Any criticism of us spending a large chunk of our budget on a player who clearly wouldn't be ready for much 1st team football this season is more than justified. The price tag is completely irrelevant as to whether we should find his lack of game time "extremely worrying" though, because he was obviously bought as one for the future, whether we overpaid or not. 

This is what Steidten said when he signed: "We want a squad that is competitive next season, but also to find the balance of ensuring that we plan for the longer-term future. Exciting young players like Luis Guilherme will help us to reach those goals.”

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

Unless he feels unsettled and doesn’t like London I’d keep him and give him game time. I’d rather see him develop than the older players failing.
 

[threesixty]

Also Guilherme has 2 players ahead of him on the right side (Bowen, Kudus) on the left Summerville would be ahead of him and even he doesn’t make the cut sometimes surprisingly. 

so for a manager who really needs points I doubt he’d be prioritising the development of LG. Unless he came on and scored a hat trick it’s pretty hard to just force yourself into a PL side with very good players in your position. 

so what was the development plan for him?

He should have been on loan or our cup games etc. or maybe dedicated 20 minutes of every game etc.  there is no plan. it’s not good. 
 

[Gank]

Rossal, Scarles is older than Guilherme and has been at the club for 10 years under a lot of different managers.

so we should sell him, right?

[threesixty]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

 

Scarles had 77 minutes from the start. 

Guilherme has had:

4 mins v Ipswich
7 mins v Everton
9 mins v Liverpool
18 mins v Man City
7 mins v Palace

Liverpool and Man City we were getting thumped, and against Palace no senior player even had a shot. 

Even the most critical can’t be judging him on that basis?

Not saying he’s going to be a world beater, but if you buy potential, at least let him settle in a new country and see if that potential is fulfilled rather than write him off after 6 months?

Of course we could have spent more wisely, but that is a separate conversation and not exactly his doing. 

 

But thats my point, Ghillurme has been training with the first team since signing and hardly got a sniff. That includes Bowen being injured and Kudus being banned both in his positon. 

Scarles came into the first team group and got a chance almost immediately and took it. 

My point being he must be dogshit in training otherwise why wouldnt he been given more time in a team thats struggled to score goals for majority of the season.

 

 

Aren’t you making the point for me here with Scarles?
Scarles didn’t suddenly become good enough in training two weeks ago. 
Yet JLo picked AWB for left back when Emerson was out. Moyes didn’t bother either, choosing Creswell. 
If Potter didn’t turn up Scarles probably wouldnt have been picked again. And you would be saying “well he can’t be doing it in training!”  

its bs isn’t it? 
.. 

[Rossal]

Yes happy to give him a chance of course. But he has been here what at least 6 months now? and he hasn't forced himself close to even getting more than 15 mins off the bench so thats extremely worrying for me. 

Bergvall at spurs the same age?  The Bournemouth mustard CB is 19? Dibling at Soton is 18 etc

All very well naming young players who already spoke English and were always going to be quicker to adapt. Try comparing Guilherme with someone from south America like Caicedo, who was 19 when Brighton got him. He didn't get a single minute in the first 6 months he was there. He then got loaned out to a Belgian club and then was recalled and spent 3 months as an unused sub before an injury crisis gave him a run in the first team.

That's fair, but then Caicedo cost £4m which is a fee you'd expect as one for the future. For £25m you would expect far more from him than what he has shown/ had the chance to show. 

Sometimes for me the 'settling' stuff gets used far too easy as an excuse. There are many players who come from shit leagues, shit countries etc and hit the ground running. 

[Ron Eff]

 

But thats my point, Ghillurme has been training with the first team since signing and hardly got a sniff. That includes Bowen being injured and Kudus being banned both in his positon. 

Scarles came into the first team group and got a chance almost immediately and took it. 

My point being he must be dogshit in training otherwise why wouldnt he been given more time in a team thats struggled to score goals for majority of the season.

Well, Lopetegui played Coufal with AWB at left back, Kudus left wing all season and barely gave Summerville a kick, so I’d read nothing into his tenure. Potter has been here three games and he’s come on in two. 

He’s also new to the country. Scarles has had his entire education here. 

The point being, lets give him a chance, surely?

Yes happy to give him a chance of course. But he has been here what at least 6 months now? and he hasn't forced himself close to even getting more than 15 mins off the bench so thats extremely worrying for me. 

Bergvall at spurs the same age?  The Bournemouth mustard CB is 19? Dibling at Soton is 18 etc

 

 

Well, yeah, but for each of those examples, there will be others who develop into first team players at 20, 21.

You also have the scenario where some managers are more inclined to gamble on young players while others prefer to use experienced pros.

Then it should be considered that one of those examples is playing for a team on track to be the worst in Premier League history, and one is at Spurs who are a) performing even worse than us, and b) for his faults, Postecoglu does throw people in more than most. Huijsen was playing senior football at Roma last season so a bit more tried and tested. 

The main issue is the transfer fee, whatever that ends up being and our decision to use whatever % of our budget on him, and I take that point, but he didn’t decide that, and there is nothing to suggest he is absolutely shit on the evidence I’ve seen, so I think we should persevere until it’s clear he isn’t going to make the grade. 

[Mad Ferret]

Rossal talking sense, as per.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Yes happy to give him a chance of course. But he has been here what at least 6 months now? and he hasn't forced himself close to even getting more than 15 mins off the bench so thats extremely worrying for me. 

Bergvall at spurs the same age?  The Bournemouth mustard CB is 19? Dibling at Soton is 18 etc

All very well naming young players who already spoke English and were always going to be quicker to adapt. Try comparing Guilherme with someone from south America like Caicedo, who was 19 when Brighton got him. He didn't get a single minute in the first 6 months he was there. He then got loaned out to a Belgian club and then was recalled and spent 3 months as an unused sub before an injury crisis gave him a run in the first team.

[Rossal]

 

 

Scarles had 77 minutes from the start. 

Guilherme has had:

4 mins v Ipswich
7 mins v Everton
9 mins v Liverpool
18 mins v Man City
7 mins v Palace

Liverpool and Man City we were getting thumped, and against Palace no senior player even had a shot. 

Even the most critical can’t be judging him on that basis?

Not saying he’s going to be a world beater, but if you buy potential, at least let him settle in a new country and see if that potential is fulfilled rather than write him off after 6 months?

Of course we could have spent more wisely, but that is a separate conversation and not exactly his doing. 

 

But thats my point, Ghillurme has been training with the first team since signing and hardly got a sniff. That includes Bowen being injured and Kudus being banned both in his positon. 

Scarles came into the first team group and got a chance almost immediately and took it. 

My point being he must be dogshit in training otherwise why wouldnt he been given more time in a team thats struggled to score goals for majority of the season.

Well, Lopetegui played Coufal with AWB at left back, Kudus left wing all season and barely gave Summerville a kick, so I’d read nothing into his tenure. Potter has been here three games and he’s come on in two. 

He’s also new to the country. Scarles has had his entire education here. 

The point being, lets give him a chance, surely?

Yes happy to give him a chance of course. But he has been here what at least 6 months now? and he hasn't forced himself close to even getting more than 15 mins off the bench so thats extremely worrying for me. 

Bergvall at spurs the same age?  The Bournemouth mustard CB is 19? Dibling at Soton is 18 etc

[Ladysmith]

 

I don’t buy that. 
you’re asking him to come into a shit team with a shit system with no British playing experience in a different country. My point is the same could have happened to the other Palmeries players if they came to us. They were going for similar money. In fact LG went for more of the higher fees indicating his quality. 

West Ham fucks up players and then blames them. Look at Haller for example. 
Even Mubama got a run in Man Cities team the other day and he has Halland to compete with. The club has done very little for youth and has no development plans it seems. 

let’s hope Potter changes this.  

I don't think Potter will as he just doesn't have the chops. This highlights one of the reasons why Potter is not the right man for us.

NO man will be the right man for us, will he, Ladysniff?

that's a bit harsh?

[Ron Eff]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

 

Scarles had 77 minutes from the start. 

Guilherme has had:

4 mins v Ipswich
7 mins v Everton
9 mins v Liverpool
18 mins v Man City
7 mins v Palace

Liverpool and Man City we were getting thumped, and against Palace no senior player even had a shot. 

Even the most critical can’t be judging him on that basis?

Not saying he’s going to be a world beater, but if you buy potential, at least let him settle in a new country and see if that potential is fulfilled rather than write him off after 6 months?

Of course we could have spent more wisely, but that is a separate conversation and not exactly his doing. 

 

But thats my point, Ghillurme has been training with the first team since signing and hardly got a sniff. That includes Bowen being injured and Kudus being banned both in his positon. 

Scarles came into the first team group and got a chance almost immediately and took it. 

My point being he must be dogshit in training otherwise why wouldnt he been given more time in a team thats struggled to score goals for majority of the season.

Well, Lopetegui played Coufal with AWB at left back, Kudus left wing all season and barely gave Summerville a kick, so I’d read nothing into his tenure. Potter has been here three games and he’s come on in two. 

He’s also new to the country. Scarles has had his entire education here. 

The point being, lets give him a chance, surely?

[Rossal]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

 

Scarles had 77 minutes from the start. 

Guilherme has had:

4 mins v Ipswich
7 mins v Everton
9 mins v Liverpool
18 mins v Man City
7 mins v Palace

Liverpool and Man City we were getting thumped, and against Palace no senior player even had a shot. 

Even the most critical can’t be judging him on that basis?

Not saying he’s going to be a world beater, but if you buy potential, at least let him settle in a new country and see if that potential is fulfilled rather than write him off after 6 months?

Of course we could have spent more wisely, but that is a separate conversation and not exactly his doing. 

 

 

But thats my point, Ghillurme has been training with the first team since signing and hardly got a sniff. That includes Bowen being injured and Kudus being banned both in his positon. 

Scarles came into the first team group and got a chance almost immediately and took it. 

My point being he must be dogshit in training otherwise why wouldnt he been given more time in a team thats struggled to score goals for majority of the season.

[Takashi Miike]

what are you expecting him to do off the minutes Ron posted below?

[Rossal]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

I don’t buy that. 
you’re asking him to come into a shit team with a shit system with no British playing experience in a different country. My point is the same could have happened to the other Palmeries players if they came to us. They were going for similar money. In fact LG went for more of the higher fees indicating his quality. 

West Ham fucks up players and then blames them. Look at Haller for example. 
Even Mubama got a run in Man Cities team the other day and he has Halland to compete with. The club has done very little for youth and has no development plans it seems. 

let’s hope Potter changes this.  

 

 

Some just aren't up to Premier league football. It's rare you get lads take a long time to adjust etc then all of a sudden flourish in the prem. The fact is he hasn't got close to getting in the 'shit team' or shit system. Scarles has, even Orford Potter feels is worth more minutes at the weekend when 1-0 down. He has had enough training sessions now and 2 managers have thought he isn't worth giving much game time too. As an attacking player when we have been largely shit going forward thats extremely worrying for his ability. 

Haller was shit, far too slow and weak for premier league football. Had a great patch at Ajax, turfed on loan to Leganes last year and didnt score.....signed for Utchrect the other day at the ripe ol age of 30. He was wrong for our system but you also need to have some pace and fight to play up front in the prem.....he had neither. 

Mubamba scored against Salford City in a 8-0 win. If he comes through at City good luck to him, but will we regret letting him go i suspect no.....with Marmoush signing later today I reckon he will be pushed down the pecking order again. Delap couldn't come through their and reckon he is better than Mubamba. 

I agree our youth policy under Moyes and Jlop was shocking and I am confident from the early signs that Potter will change this dramatically. But the players also have to have talent and showcase it when it matters. There are plenty of young lads this season who are flourishing having hardy played at prem level. Ghillurme certainly has a lot to do to be another one. 

[Takashi Miike]

his contract and fee structure must be based on minutes (for whatever team), no other reason to not have played more. only that little fucker agrees to such deals

[Ron Eff]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

 

 

 

Scarles had 77 minutes from the start. 

Guilherme has had:

4 mins v Ipswich
7 mins v Everton
9 mins v Liverpool
18 mins v Man City
7 mins v Palace

Liverpool and Man City we were getting thumped, and against Palace no senior player even had a shot. 

Even the most critical can’t be judging him on that basis?

Not saying he’s going to be a world beater, but if you buy potential, at least let him settle in a new country and see if that potential is fulfilled rather than write him off after 6 months?

Of course we could have spent more wisely, but that is a separate conversation and not exactly his doing. 

[Mike Oxsaw]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

I don’t buy that. 
you’re asking him to come into a shit team with a shit system with no British playing experience in a different country. My point is the same could have happened to the other Palmeries players if they came to us. They were going for similar money. In fact LG went for more of the higher fees indicating his quality. 

West Ham fucks up players and then blames them. Look at Haller for example. 
Even Mubama got a run in Man Cities team the other day and he has Halland to compete with. The club has done very little for youth and has no development plans it seems. 

let’s hope Potter changes this.  

I don't think Potter will as he just doesn't have the chops. This highlights one of the reasons why Potter is not the right man for us.

NO man will be the right man for us, will he, Ladysniff?

[Ladysmith]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

I don’t buy that. 
you’re asking him to come into a shit team with a shit system with no British playing experience in a different country. My point is the same could have happened to the other Palmeries players if they came to us. They were going for similar money. In fact LG went for more of the higher fees indicating his quality. 

West Ham fucks up players and then blames them. Look at Haller for example. 
Even Mubama got a run in Man Cities team the other day and he has Halland to compete with. The club has done very little for youth and has no development plans it seems. 

let’s hope Potter changes this.  

I don't think Potter will as he just doesn't have the chops. This highlights one of the reasons why Potter is not the right man for us.

[threesixty]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

 

 

I don’t buy that. 
you’re asking him to come into a shit team with a shit system with no British playing experience in a different country. My point is the same could have happened to the other Palmeries players if they came to us. They were going for similar money. In fact LG went for more of the higher fees indicating his quality. 

West Ham fucks up players and then blames them. Look at Haller for example. 
Even Mubama got a run in Man Cities team the other day and he has Halland to compete with. The club has done very little for youth and has no development plans it seems. 

let’s hope Potter changes this.  

[Massive Attack]

“Luis is obviously still very young, but we have no doubt that he is ready to make an impact in the first team here. He is coming to a great environment, where he will be surrounded by other exciting young players and good people who will support him every step of the way.“We will look after him, help him and his family to settle in and allow him time to adapt. But we are very excited about his immediate potential"

[Rossal]

Considering how shit we have been, and now 2 managers have had a look and neither have given him many minutes even with a injury crisis.....

I'd say its not looking good, when he has played he has hardly shown much. Scarles for example has been far more promising in his cameos. 

The next Raphina he is not. 

[Massive Attack]

It's not about him being bad (no one can tell yet), it's about prioritising upwards of £25.5M transfer money being bad when we had (and still do) more pressing issues in the Squad to address first before flying around Brazil to get him. That money could have been better structured towards other deals we needed instantly in the Team. Not yet another attacking Midfielder that will need a significant amount of time to bed in to a new Country so young and the 1 type of position we are more than enough covered for.