The Official Politics Thread (enter at your own risk)

[Come On You Irons]

There. Resident WHO political commentators and gurus can knock yourselves out in here and conduct your endless bickering. All other threads will be locked.

[Jaan Kenbrovin]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

The US thought it had an agreement. 

But to say one side got bullied when it became a live "litigation," is like  saying one team destroyed another in a live football match.

Edit: so you are essentially blaming Zelensky's approach with that question.

 

 

It wasn’t just the US. Macron and Starmer have both expected it after meetings this week.  With France holding mineral talks themselves since October. They also stated it was Ukraine that proposed a deal to begin with.

https://kyivindependent.com/france-has- ... ster-says/

Zelensky has obviously got cold feet as he hadn’t got specific details of the security guarantees in return, but seems to have burned his bridges.

[ironsofcanada]

I think Trump & Vance were very disrespectful to a man who is essentially doing his utmost to save his country (in a few different ways).

it’s very easy to sit across from him and tell him what he should & shouldn’t be doing when you’re in a position of power. He stood up in front of congress to say thank you, and has done many times on the world stage. To keep saying he hasn’t said thanks is ridiculous.

 

 

The "thanks" thing is true.  But honestly is a side issue. 

The big thing was he kept intimating that you can't do diplomacy with Putin and then essentially outright said it.

Based on that he tried to change the deal live and got smacked down verbally for it.  He tried to make it a verbal contest and lost. 

"Utmost to save his country," and his position.  Like Trump and Vance were doing.   

[nychammer]

Why should the US continue to pour billions into a never ending war with nothing in return?. Z made it clear he's not interested in a peace deal involving the US, so dust off your wallets Europe, you're on your own with this war now. Lets see how they deal with Putin.

[goose]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

The US thought it had an agreement. 

But to say one side got bullied when it became a live "litigation," is like  saying one team destroyed another in a live football match.

Edit: so you are essentially blaming Zelensky's approach with that question.

 

 

I think Trump & Vance were very disrespectful to a man who is essentially doing his utmost to save his country (in a few different ways).

it’s very easy to sit across from him and tell him what he should & shouldn’t be doing when you’re in a position of power. He stood up in front of congress to say thank you, and has done many times on the world stage. To keep saying he hasn’t said thanks is ridiculous.

[XKhammer]

Trump is only interested in a deal involving money.
He is trying to exploit a country in deep deep problem. Only a fascist would back this act.
The show they put on last night was nothing short of a scandal, truly showing how little class Trump and his clowns has.
I have one single message to USA

FUCK OFF YOU CUNTS

First time I've agreed with your post.....spot on 

[ironsofcanada]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

The US thought it had an agreement. 

But to say one side got bullied when it became a live "litigation," is like  saying one team destroyed another in a live football match.

Edit: so you are essentially blaming Zelensky's approach with that question.

[cholo]

Surely you've got to treat Trump with kid gloves however distasteful you think it is? Going on about "security guarantees" was a big mistake. Trump clearly wanted to avoid the subject on live tv.

It made me laugh when Trump was asked about the Baltic nations and he fobbed it off because he obviously doesn't have a clue what those countries are.

Can't see any way back for Zelensky after this. It was always going to be difficult for him but I think he played his hand badly unfortunately.

[goose]

I’m not sure why any of that was done in front of the camera before they had an agreement.

[ironsofcanada]

Interesting take Nurse which actually made me think.

Watching it made me feel really uncomfortable, it was kind of playground stuff. I also felt they bullied Zelenskyy and used their position of power to make a show of him.

however, I do take your point about realism. It looked a bit like two guys arguing down the pub, maybe politics needs some more ‘real’ arguments and less of the polished performances which are often just for show.

Did you watch the whole thing?

I agree they bullied him. 

What tipped it off for me was Zelensky saying "What kind of diplomacy?"  His tone through the whole first 40 minutes was that diplomacy with Putin was not going to work.

You can agree with that and Zelensky certainly feels that way.

But if so why do you put you in front of cameras for the express purpose of announcing a deal that will require diplomacy with Putin.

If Zelensky was trying to change the deal live on camera, then there is going to be a reaction.  Think of a football match where you come with an adversarial game plan, you tried but the other guy bullied you and did it better. 

IF, he wanted something different than they were going to announce.

Either work the differences out in the backrooms or don't come at all. 

[ironsofcanada]

Trump is only interested in a deal involving money.
 

Search your soul, which poltician isn't?

Nobody wants to die, first.  Second everyone wants to enrich their people thereby keeping themselves in power (and enriching themselves).  

Which world leader do you see with other motives?

[ironsofcanada]

Where did I say I have a solution? 
I just posited an aphorism that is as true today as it was in Churchill's time. You know when almost everyone pooh poohed his "warmongering" stance but was later found to be right on the money.

The problem is - without another solution - the consequences of a full out shooting war with Putin are actually more dangerous than with Hitler. Hitler did not have nuclear weapons.  Ideologically we can try to be the same but practically we can't. 

[Keep dreaming]

Trump is only interested in a deal involving money.
He is trying to exploit a country in deep deep problem. Only a fascist would back this act.
The show they put on last night was nothing short of a scandal, truly showing how little class Trump and his clowns has.
I have one single message to USA

FUCK OFF YOU CUNTS

[Nurse Ratched]

What's the point? What would it add?

[Far Cough UKunt]

With all due respect, we can all pull out of our arses any number of quotes from statesman and philosophers from the past. 

Go on then?

[Nurse Ratched]

With all due respect, we can all pull out of our arses any number of quotes from statesman and philosophers from the past. 

[Far Cough UKunt]

All I'm going to say is, those who don't learn from history (Sudetenland, Austria and later, Poland) are doomed to repeat it.

Putin should not be allowed to permanently claim those territories he's already annexed.

Righto, Cough.

Now, do you have a solution that will satisfy all parties and does not involve continuing the current slaughter? If so please get on the blower to Trump, Zelensky and Putin, because your expertise is needed urgently. 

Or maybe this is a situation that calls for a least worst option. 

Where did I say I have a solution? 
I just posited an aphorism that is as true today as it was in Churchill's time. You know when almost everyone pooh poohed his "warmongering" stance but was later found to be right on the money.

[Nurse Ratched]

All I'm going to say is, those who don't learn from history (Sudetenland, Austria and later, Poland) are doomed to repeat it.

Putin should not be allowed to permanently claim those territories he's already annexed.

Righto, Cough.

Now, do you have a solution that will satisfy all parties and does not involve continuing the current slaughter? If so please get on the blower to Trump, Zelensky and Putin, because your expertise is needed urgently. 

Or maybe this is a situation that calls for a least worst option. 

[Eerie Decent]

That's obviously not going to happen ffs

[Far Cough UKunt]

All I'm going to say is, those who don't learn from history (Sudetenland, Austria and later, Poland) are doomed to repeat it.

Putin should not be allowed to permanently claim those territories he's already annexed.

[Nurse Ratched]

Goose, to many people (we're psychologically and emotionally softer than previous generations) it will certainly have come across as bullying. But also, Zelensky was the instigator in the sense that he suddenly started pouring scorn on the idea of a diplomatic intervention leading to peace. Zelensky has very, very good reasons, borne out of bitter experience, to doubt Putin will negotiate in good faith. But he was supposed to be there to talk about/sign a minerals deal. The peace negotiations were ongoing in the background, but in that press conference he was undermining the process with his comments and inflaming the situation with rhetoric about American soldiers dying in a future war with Russia. It was out of order (but, as I said, rather thrilling) It can't have been easy for Zelensky to be shut out of peace talks with Putin, but his position appears to be intractable: he wants the rest of the world to pay for Ukraine to continue their war against Russia. And for the slaughter to continue. It's a point of view and he has the right to it. Other people, including American voters, disagree. And they're the ones having to pay for it with their taxes.

[goose]

=12.35px"I only saw one side acting terribly" - what a shock

I watched the whole debacle, not selected clips. Found it all rather thrilling and certainly refreshing. Neither Trump nor Zelensky are typical politicians, and as a result opinions were expressed honestly and it got heated, and the world now knows where both of them stand, unfiltered by their spokesmen and uncontamimated by the interpretations of biased media outlets of all stripes.

Contrast it to the smiling, polished greige choreography we usually get treated to when professional politicians hold press conferences and pretend everything's going great. I know you centrist dads love your professional politicians and how dignified they are when they go about doing absolutely bugger all - very expensively - but it's nice sometimes when a bit of honesty breaks out.

Interesting take Nurse which actually made me think.

Watching it made me feel really uncomfortable, it was kind of playground stuff. I also felt they bullied Zelenskyy and used their position of power to make a show of him.

however, I do take your point about realism. It looked a bit like two guys arguing down the pub, maybe politics needs some more ‘real’ arguments and less of the polished performances which are often just for show.

[Takashi Miike]

"Meanwhile, Zelensky remained humble and respectful. Like a true leader."


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[Eerie Decent]

Where it's all going, for a start, is the end to the war in Ukraine, and no WW3.

A big disappointment for some of you, clearly.

[Nurse Ratched]

=12.35px"I only saw one side acting terribly" - what a shock

I watched the whole debacle, not selected clips. Found it all rather thrilling and certainly refreshing. Neither Trump nor Zelensky are typical politicians, and as a result opinions were expressed honestly and it got heated, and the world now knows where both of them stand, unfiltered by their spokesmen and uncontamimated by the interpretations of biased media outlets of all stripes.

Contrast it to the smiling, polished greige choreography we usually get treated to when professional politicians hold press conferences and pretend everything's going great. I know you centrist dads love your professional politicians and how dignified they are when they go about doing absolutely bugger all - very expensively - but it's nice sometimes when a bit of honesty breaks out.

[honky cat]

They should have had Musk's kid running around the room as well.

​​​​​​I don't know where all of this is going with Trump but it's very entertaining. And I expect there will be a "zelensky hovis" thread very soon.

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