Steidten Out

[Massive Attack]

I want this costly clueless conniving cսnt gone. We have suffered persistent injuries to expensive key signings this season, as well as others who just don't cut it against Premier League opposition, or have suspect temperaments/injury records previously known and they're all his picks. He clearly doesn't do his due diligence well enough as one of the stories of the season has been us suffering injuries to key new signings..

Fullkrug £27M - Suspect Injury History 

Todibo £34M (if avoid relegation) - Suspect Injury History/Suspect attitude problems at Barcelona 

Mavropanos £19M - Just utter dogshit (and ironically probably now out injured as well due to concussion for 10 days like Fabianski)

Alvarez £35M - Nowhere near good enough for the money we spent on him looking lost and slow as arseholes against Premier League opposition 

Kudus is just about the only costly signing that's come off that's genuine quality, although even he now has suspect temperament issues when getting himself a 5 match ban for fighting an entire Spurs Team in front of everyone. So fuck knows what he's also like behind the scenes..

Just sick of the persistent injuries to key players that has derailed our season and continues to do so on tonights evidence with Fullcrock, as well as all the unsettling bollocks behind the scenes. There's no smoke without fire and I now make that not 1 but 2 Managers in quick succession that allegedly told him to stay away from the Training Ground. It makes me wonder whether he is our Club Mole all along who has persistently leaked things out to the Media from either within the Dressing Room/Snaps with managers behind another managers back that then coincidentally get leaked at just the right time? A manager who was humiliated in the media for taking at least 2 Training sessions and possibly a 3rd on the last day he eventually got sacked and the whole thing was handled terribly which again points to Steidten and his breakdown in his 2nd relationship with a manager. And he's supposed to work with them, not against them!

On the radio yesterday when discussing Steidten someone mentioned how odd they thought it was to see him down by the players tunnel/dressing room area as well as doing interviews with TNT during the Chelsea loss earlier in the season and they thought good Technical Directors aren't seen front and centre as much as this one always appears to be. He's certainly got an impressive holiday snap collection he leaks to the media as soon as he takes them. 

The longer this season has panned out the more and more I've thought something just doesn't sit right at the Club and I genuinely think he has been at the heart of a lot of our issues. I suppose that's why it's now been known his position is under review and they're already on to him, hence why Potter swerved the Steidten question possibly knowing something we don't about him. 

Or does anyone still believe he's the right man to guide our Club making such big decisions within it?

 

[Massive Attack]

And Summerville was apparently Sullivans/Salthouses 1 of his 2 picks in the Squad (Wan-Bissaka the other) in any case. Not that I agree Sullivan should be meddling as he's always been the issue playing Football Manager from the Boardroom but looks like those signings were actually 2 of our better ones. 

On the surface I think it's definitely true that Summerville and AWB were 2 of our better signings. The problem is that if you bring in a manager and a centre forward who both want the main form of attack being crosses into the box then it won't do the team much good if your chairman buys a left winger who wants to cut inside and shoot and a right back who doesn't cross, especially if your other first choice wide players don't cross the ball much either. If the £50m odd that went on those two signings had been spent on players that fit the system Lopetegui prefers then maybe he'd still be in the job and Fullkrug wouldn't have been such a bad signing. Probably not though.

 

 

Partly in agreement with that, apart from Fullkrugs injury history/age for the huge outlay was ludicrous so watching a slow carthorse trot around because he's probably too afraid of his hammys going twang was never a good fit for us, for that reason alone (especially with our Club track record). There weren't many voices against Fullkrug arriving, many instead were far too starstruck of getting in a 'International No. 9 German Striker' but I weren’t having it knowing how costly he was for his age/injury record and said Borussia Dortmund saw us coming and had us over a barrel.

And lo and behold my fears regarding his fitness come true. We won't be seeing Fullkrug any time soon (yet again) with how he pulled up with a suspected grade 4 tear and it was all so predictable. I was actually fucked off to watch us carry him off when he really needed a stretcher he hobbled that bad, or a wheelchair.. And people wondered why Lopetegui would be so reluctant to rush him in to the starting line-up and preferred to gradually introduce him more and more as he's liable to get injured again quickly. 

I also think it was a lazy signing by Steidten having known him from his time at Weder Bremen and just thought he could rely on him to solve our Striking issues up top. Well he clearly forgot his checkered injury record that's for sure.

£27.5M and a 4 year long contract on £90k a week that'll now hang around our necks like an expensive curse. Great work, Tim nice but dim...

[southbankbornnbred]

Not that it particularly matters but I noted that Steidten didn't have much of a career in playing football.  48 appearances and one goal in a careeer lasting 12 years, as a defensive midfielder.  Maybe he could do a job in there now!

I'm a bit old school about this.  I certainly do not see any point in a DOF who brings in players that a manager doesn't fancy or want, especially if that player doesn't fit into the managers philosophy and system.  Lop's idea of football on the front foot, with a neat passing game, great in theory but we ended up with a bunch of slow players who on the whole can't pass a football.

A manager should live or die by his signings, or at least that's what we used to say, not on someone elses signings.  So any relationship between a manager and DOF should be a good one.  I can see the idea that the DOF will be there longer than a manager so the board should appoint a DOF but who chooses the playing style and club philosophy?  The board?  the DOF?  or does that change with each manager?  

The Board should set a long term strategy and bring in the DoF to implement it. The DoF then hires coaches that fit the long term strategy to work towards in the short to medium term (most managers are a 2-3 year cycle afterall). Players should be bought that align to the Strategy (whether footballing, revenue or otherwise). By having the DoF control the strategy implementation, it's the managers gig to align to the DoF's direction and strategy. Which is why he picks the manager.

If the board hire the manager, the DoF is a glorified head scout and the ability to be consistent when managers change without wholesale squad changes is lost (which is the whole point, and what is unsustainable about the old model).

The whole point of having a DoF is delivery of an overarching football strategy that persists from manager to manager, and the selection of managers that align to that strategy so you don't have massive squad overhauls as a manager changes, but continue to build towards a persistent common objective.

None of this can happen at West Ham whilst Sullivan remains in charge day to day.
​​​​

This is all spot on, as theory.

In reality, of course, it never works like the theory. This is the “real” world of football, where disagreements over players, transfers, fees, wages, tactics and strategy are common.

And our club seems to exacerbate all of these things by delivering a situation where we have three “sides” to what is supposed to be a common strategy: the chairman, the technical director and the manager.

Until recently, all pulling in different directions, with each one trying to show who’s “in charge”. Let’s see if improves under Potter. It needs all three to become more collegiate, less egotistical and far better co-ordinated.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

And Summerville was apparently Sullivans/Salthouses 1 of his 2 picks in the Squad (Wan-Bissaka the other) in any case. Not that I agree Sullivan should be meddling as he's always been the issue playing Football Manager from the Boardroom but looks like those signings were actually 2 of our better ones. 

On the surface I think it's definitely true that Summerville and AWB were 2 of our better signings. The problem is that if you bring in a manager and a centre forward who both want the main form of attack being crosses into the box then it won't do the team much good if your chairman buys a left winger who wants to cut inside and shoot and a right back who doesn't cross, especially if your other first choice wide players don't cross the ball much either. If the £50m odd that went on those two signings had been spent on players that fit the system Lopetegui prefers then maybe he'd still be in the job and Fullkrug wouldn't have been such a bad signing. Probably not though.

[Any Old Iron]

I said a few days ago I said that if Potter  became our coach then he should agitate to get rid of Steidten.  The kraut has wasted the best part of £100 MILLION on players who are pony and who have fuck all resale value.
As long as Steidten is around he’ll make Potter’s job that much harder.

[Massive Attack]

Steinden has absolutely failed.  Aside from Kudus who else has been a success?  We now have a squad mixed with older squad players/dead wood with a handful of good players.   Summerville looks a good signing but still not sure on the Brazilian kid.   Fullkrug will be lucky to play 10 games this season.

And Summerville was apparently Sullivans/Salthouses 1 of his 2 picks in the Squad (Wan-Bissaka the other) in any case. Not that I agree Sullivan should be meddling as he's always been the issue playing Football Manager from the Boardroom but looks like those signings were actually 2 of our better ones. 

The Club's an absolute shambles with far too many Chefs spoiling the broth who end up serving us poor suffering fans copious amounts of shit because of it. There is 'zero' alignment by everyone involved and certain players in the game need fucking off so we can start again afresh. Otherwise this'll just keep happening. We never fucking learn as Club...

[Massive Attack]

Steidten is a liability, of that there is little doubt, however he wanted Hurzeler or Amorim and NOT Lopetegui so at least he's got that going for him.

Anyhow MA, I see you've now decided where your angst is to be directed now that your boyfriend has been given the boot. I thought it was going to be the (in your words)  "classless prick", Potter.

Injuries are "derailing the season now" but they most certainly weren't under the first 4 months of Lopetegui's tenure when we were affected less than any other team in the league. He did that derailing all by himself

You're so fucking obsessed with me, obsessedman, it's creepy as fuck. And I absolutely stand by calling Potter a classless prick for sleeping on his decision to join 2 nights in a row whilst another manager is taking his Training sessions and someone who showed us more class than we ever afforded him the way he was treated in the end.

The injuries derailed the season close to the start when Fullkrug pulled up lame and we limped on with our overaged pensioners up top in his place. I said on here from the beginning we should never have bought Fullkrug because of his age and injury record for such a huge cost. On top of that Todibo was constantly either in or out the side with persistent injury issues. Sometimes playing with a knock or groin problems that weren't clearing up and was again a big part of our new look Team. On top of that the injuries stacked up to key players with Antonio almost losing his life and ruled out for the season and his subsequent replacement up top Bowen was also added to a long term injury picked up.

We've struggled for goals all season long from a Striker and every one that's been selected has ended up out injured long term. And we wonder why we've lacked goals from the side when we're without a Striker up top and 1 that can stay fit long enough to regularly play. So stop focusing on the amount of injuries throughout the Squad which I've never said was an issue, it was injuries concentrated to the Striker position and Centre Half issue mainly that centres around Steidtens picks in the Team of expensive injury prone or piss poor quality involving Fullkrug, Todibo, Mavropanos - all his signings. 

[Tomshardware]

Steinden has absolutely failed.  Aside from Kudus who else has been a success?  We now have a squad mixed with older squad players/dead wood with a handful of good players.   Summerville looks a good signing but still not sure on the Brazilian kid.   Fullkrug will be lucky to play 10 games this season.

[honky cat]

We absolutely have to bring players in this month. See what he comes up with. See how he gets on with potter. We've wasted enough money on non playing staff, now's not the time to pay him off. 

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

I think another thing that needs to be thought about regarding Steidten (or anyone who takes over from him) is the scouting process in general. Some people seem to think that the head of recruitment ought to be like some kind of Mystic Meg who just pops along to some lower league game in Croatia and spots the next Luka Modric or whoever and signs him up on the spot before other clubs notice.

These days, scouting done right is a lengthy process and very much data driven. It requires investment and organisation and analysis and this club has been well behind in all this for years. One of the most important parts of Steidten's job is putting the right structure in place for this. God knows if he actually is though. Giving his own brother a top job in the scouting department last year was more than a bit questionable.

[Mike Oxsaw]

It looks like Sullivan has been convinced that a modern, progressive, forward looking football club needs a "Director of Football", and a "Technical Director", and so has created and filled those posts without the slightest idea of their roles & responsibilities.

[stubbo]

Stubbo > I guess the other issue occurs if the fans don't appreciate the strategy footballing wise.  Let's say both Sullivan and whatever DOF agreed that Moyes footballing philosophy was the right way forward because it won a trophy.  Then you would be bringing managers in who play the same way.

Correct...but that's the job then of the fans to apply pressure to the owners to change the longer term strategy (as happened with Moyes).

The only part of football the board should be involved with are the DoF and setting long term goals and strategy. He runs the football operation in the same way they leave Brady to run the Commercial operation. 

They should remain high level and away from all decision making at the lower level.

Clearly this is non-functional at West Ham with Sullivan wanting to pick managers, players etc.  

You need more board members like Kretinsky...they have high level interest, but leave the football up to the football people...it's increasingly clear it's why Steidten was appointed...to be Kretinsky's 'football man' as he doesn't trust Sullivan. Brady shouldn't be in the football decisions either....her job is to generate revenue, not bring in her husband's mates.

To be clear Steidten has never had this level of authority before so he's new to this gig. He's a talent spotter historically. Hence the name 'pearl diver'. And that's not an exact science. But the main point is the model at West Ham isn't properly implemented. And whilst that's the case, Sullivan will keep lurching from out for work manager to out of work manager, with no continuity, being driven by the whims of the agents who have him round their little finger, and stopping the club from progressing.

Sullivan is the root cause problem, and it would appear until the Grim Reaper can get involved, we're stuck with that problem.

​​​​

[zico]

Stubbo > I guess the other issue occurs if the fans don't appreciate the strategy footballing wise.  Let's say both Sullivan and whatever DOF agreed that Moyes footballing philosophy was the right way forward because it won a trophy.  Then you would be bringing managers in who play the same way.

[Fauxstralian]

The theory is that the DoF sets out the strategy of the club and picks the manager 
Obviously you’d think that would be someone on the same page that he can work with 
Enter D Sullivan to fuck things up
Owners should appoint football people and let them do their job

Expect Potter & Steidten are closer than the odd couple Steidten & Moyes (or Loppy) but wouldn’t be surprised if the ownership bin Tim to load all the blame on him for the current situation 

[stubbo]

Not that it particularly matters but I noted that Steidten didn't have much of a career in playing football.  48 appearances and one goal in a careeer lasting 12 years, as a defensive midfielder.  Maybe he could do a job in there now!

I'm a bit old school about this.  I certainly do not see any point in a DOF who brings in players that a manager doesn't fancy or want, especially if that player doesn't fit into the managers philosophy and system.  Lop's idea of football on the front foot, with a neat passing game, great in theory but we ended up with a bunch of slow players who on the whole can't pass a football.

A manager should live or die by his signings, or at least that's what we used to say, not on someone elses signings.  So any relationship between a manager and DOF should be a good one.  I can see the idea that the DOF will be there longer than a manager so the board should appoint a DOF but who chooses the playing style and club philosophy?  The board?  the DOF?  or does that change with each manager?  

The Board should set a long term strategy and bring in the DoF to implement it. The DoF then hires coaches that fit the long term strategy to work towards in the short to medium term (most managers are a 2-3 year cycle afterall). Players should be bought that align to the Strategy (whether footballing, revenue or otherwise). By having the DoF control the strategy implementation, it's the managers gig to align to the DoF's direction and strategy. Which is why he picks the manager.

If the board hire the manager, the DoF is a glorified head scout and the ability to be consistent when managers change without wholesale squad changes is lost (which is the whole point, and what is unsustainable about the old model).

The whole point of having a DoF is delivery of an overarching football strategy that persists from manager to manager, and the selection of managers that align to that strategy so you don't have massive squad overhauls as a manager changes, but continue to build towards a persistent common objective.

None of this can happen at West Ham whilst Sullivan remains in charge day to day.
​​​​

[zico]

Not that it particularly matters but I noted that Steidten didn't have much of a career in playing football.  48 appearances and one goal in a careeer lasting 12 years, as a defensive midfielder.  Maybe he could do a job in there now!

I'm a bit old school about this.  I certainly do not see any point in a DOF who brings in players that a manager doesn't fancy or want, especially if that player doesn't fit into the managers philosophy and system.  Lop's idea of football on the front foot, with a neat passing game, great in theory but we ended up with a bunch of slow players who on the whole can't pass a football.

A manager should live or die by his signings, or at least that's what we used to say, not on someone elses signings.  So any relationship between a manager and DOF should be a good one.  I can see the idea that the DOF will be there longer than a manager so the board should appoint a DOF but who chooses the playing style and club philosophy?  The board?  the DOF?  or does that change with each manager?  

[El Scorchio]

The point is that the Director of Football hires a manager who he's aligned with, and shares the same vision of how the team should play, etc. If the Director of Football is buying a load of players that the manager doesn't want then clearly either he's buying the wrong players or he hired the wrong manager and needs to replace him. Either way, the responsibility lies with him, and he might need sacking himself.

You don't do it that way, you get what we've been having for years: no vision, no plan, no structure. Just to-ing and fro-ing between completely different managerial styles and being stuck with players on the wage bill who don't fit the new system.

The point is that the idiot owner shouldn’t hire a technical director or someone to run the footballing affairs, and then immediately cut his nuts off by going over his head and hiring a manager he clearly didn’t want to work with, not to mention with buying players as well. It all stems from Sullivan not being able to keep his fucking beak out. If you’re having a DOF/TD/whatever, then you stick your nose out trust their judgement and leave them to do the job they are employed to do. Otherwise just don’t employ one in the first place. 

[Lee Trundle]

He also seems obsessed with the celebrity of it all.

 

Yeah, he loves a bit of SOCIAL MEDIA.  A bit too much for my liking also.

[stubbo]

Totally agree. The hierarchy should be:

Board

DOF/Technical Director

Manager and Staff

Players 

DOF chooses a manager to fit the vision for the club. DOF establishes a recruitment team to find players for the club. Manager works with DOF to assess the squad and agree on player target profiles. Recruitment teams being possible targets to DOF to evaluate. DOF look at options with manager to agree priority targets. Manager offers opinions and then DOF recruits with recruitment team.

Board evaluate performance of DOF over the medium term.

DOF makes hiring/firing decisions on head coach.

At the moment we have a board that wants to get involved in football decisions and own the football vision as well as the head coach selection, no clear owner of players coming in, and no alignment across levels. Even the board themselves don't seem aligned.

Our Technical Director and Head Coach appear to both report into the Board.

Structurally its a fucking mess. No great surprise as Sullivan is a shambles of an owner.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

The point is that the Director of Football hires a manager who he's aligned with, and shares the same vision of how the team should play, etc. If the Director of Football is buying a load of players that the manager doesn't want then clearly either he's buying the wrong players or he hired the wrong manager and needs to replace him. Either way, the responsibility lies with him, and he might need sacking himself.

You don't do it that way, you get what we've been having for years: no vision, no plan, no structure. Just to-ing and fro-ing between completely different managerial styles and being stuck with players on the wage bill who don't fit the new system.

[southbankbornnbred]

Gut feeling is that Potter will want somebody else to do Steidten’s job. Somebody more aligned with the manager (and vice-versa), as was the case in Brighton.

I’d be happier with that, too. If a club is going to make the tech director role work, then there has to be a good alignment with the manager. Or it’s all just so disjointed.

Sulli - the biggest hurdle of them all - is another matter. But he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

The manager shouldn't be the one deciding on who the DoF is. We had that with Pellegrini. The way it should be is that the DoF makes ALL the recruitment decisions, players and coaching staff. That's the only way a club can have a long term vision and plan, because we all know managers don't last long in any job.

Personally I don't think Steidten was qualified for the DoF job, but seeing as he's not being allowed to do that job anyway, who can tell if he's up to it or not?

But the arse end of that equation - which proponents never want to talk about - is that if you give the DoF too much control, you end up with almost no alignment between the signings etc and the manager.

And, frankly, the manager remains the most important person in that equation - whether people like it or not. He has to coach, manage, pick and work with the players every day. Day in, day out. Week in, week out. The technical director does not.

If a DoF is spending expensively on a load of players the manager doesn’t want or rate, then the team is fucked. There’s no escaping that.

It’s why I’m not really a huge fan of the DoF role unless it’s much more aligned with the approach of the manager. There has to be a common purpose, or you end up with a disjointed mess. And lo and behold, what do we have at the moment..?

Of course, the ideal way to make it work is to have owners and a board who understand the requirement for that alignment and balance. Instead, we have an owner who - in his own way - is a third power base in that equation and who (through his personal network,  Silkman etc) sometimes does his own thing.

This is why we’re a terribly run club: there is very little real co-ordination or vision. We’ve basically had three power bases pulling in different directions. Hence, the mess of this squad.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Gut feeling is that Potter will want somebody else to do Steidten’s job. Somebody more aligned with the manager (and vice-versa), as was the case in Brighton.

I’d be happier with that, too. If a club is going to make the tech director role work, then there has to be a good alignment with the manager. Or it’s all just so disjointed.

Sulli - the biggest hurdle of them all - is another matter. But he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

 

The manager shouldn't be the one deciding on who the DoF is. We had that with Pellegrini. The way it should be is that the DoF makes ALL the recruitment decisions, players and coaching staff. That's the only way a club can have a long term vision and plan, because we all know managers don't last long in any job.

Personally I don't think Steidten was qualified for the DoF job, but seeing as he's not being allowed to do that job anyway, who can tell if he's up to it or not?

[onsideman]

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

It's not only this hindsight one though, is it?
Plenty on here said it at the time
Get rid of Ings, then yeah - in the conversation 
Look for a young, strong, fast attacker and then buy Fullkrug to add to our ageing and expensive front line, then a big old no
Dortmund were very happy to get rid. I'm not sure why there's even an argument

You and I might have preferred a young, strong, fast attacker, but was that Steidten's remit? Or was he supposed to go out and get a quality striker that fit in with the new manager's usual style of play, someone to replicate the success he had with En-Nesyri, who is a very similar player.

Similar... just the best part of 5 years younger

Felt like a very lazy piece of work to me but wtfdik?

[southbankbornnbred]

Gut feeling is that Potter will want somebody else to do Steidten’s job. Somebody more aligned with the manager (and vice-versa), as was the case in Brighton.

I’d be happier with that, too. If a club is going to make the tech director role work, then there has to be a good alignment with the manager. Or it’s all just so disjointed.

Sulli - the biggest hurdle of them all - is another matter. But he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

 

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

It's not only this hindsight one though, is it?
Plenty on here said it at the time
Get rid of Ings, then yeah - in the conversation 
Look for a young, strong, fast attacker and then buy Fullkrug to add to our ageing and expensive front line, then a big old no
Dortmund were very happy to get rid. I'm not sure why there's even an argument

You and I might have preferred a young, strong, fast attacker, but was that Steidten's remit? Or was he supposed to go out and get a quality striker that fit in with the new manager's usual style of play, someone to replicate the success he had with En-Nesyri, who is a very similar player.

[onsideman]

Fullkrug wasn't the only option available in world football once the Duran door had closed. He shouldn't even have been in the conversation - even less so if your job is to unearth talent outside of that you can find on Football Manager

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

It's not only this hindsight one though, is it?
Plenty on here said it at the time
Get rid of Ings, then yeah - in the conversation 
Look for a young, strong, fast attacker and then buy Fullkrug to add to our ageing and expensive front line, then a big old no
Dortmund were very happy to get rid. I'm not sure why there's even an argument