Steidten Out

[Massive Attack]

I want this costly clueless conniving cսnt gone. We have suffered persistent injuries to expensive key signings this season, as well as others who just don't cut it against Premier League opposition, or have suspect temperaments/injury records previously known and they're all his picks. He clearly doesn't do his due diligence well enough as one of the stories of the season has been us suffering injuries to key new signings..

Fullkrug £27M - Suspect Injury History 

Todibo £34M (if avoid relegation) - Suspect Injury History/Suspect attitude problems at Barcelona 

Mavropanos £19M - Just utter dogshit (and ironically probably now out injured as well due to concussion for 10 days like Fabianski)

Alvarez £35M - Nowhere near good enough for the money we spent on him looking lost and slow as arseholes against Premier League opposition 

Kudus is just about the only costly signing that's come off that's genuine quality, although even he now has suspect temperament issues when getting himself a 5 match ban for fighting an entire Spurs Team in front of everyone. So fuck knows what he's also like behind the scenes..

Just sick of the persistent injuries to key players that has derailed our season and continues to do so on tonights evidence with Fullcrock, as well as all the unsettling bollocks behind the scenes. There's no smoke without fire and I now make that not 1 but 2 Managers in quick succession that allegedly told him to stay away from the Training Ground. It makes me wonder whether he is our Club Mole all along who has persistently leaked things out to the Media from either within the Dressing Room/Snaps with managers behind another managers back that then coincidentally get leaked at just the right time? A manager who was humiliated in the media for taking at least 2 Training sessions and possibly a 3rd on the last day he eventually got sacked and the whole thing was handled terribly which again points to Steidten and his breakdown in his 2nd relationship with a manager. And he's supposed to work with them, not against them!

On the radio yesterday when discussing Steidten someone mentioned how odd they thought it was to see him down by the players tunnel/dressing room area as well as doing interviews with TNT during the Chelsea loss earlier in the season and they thought good Technical Directors aren't seen front and centre as much as this one always appears to be. He's certainly got an impressive holiday snap collection he leaks to the media as soon as he takes them. 

The longer this season has panned out the more and more I've thought something just doesn't sit right at the Club and I genuinely think he has been at the heart of a lot of our issues. I suppose that's why it's now been known his position is under review and they're already on to him, hence why Potter swerved the Steidten question possibly knowing something we don't about him. 

Or does anyone still believe he's the right man to guide our Club making such big decisions within it?

 

[Mike Oxsaw]

It looks like Sullivan has been convinced that a modern, progressive, forward looking football club needs a "Director of Football", and a "Technical Director", and so has created and filled those posts without the slightest idea of their roles & responsibilities.

[stubbo]

Stubbo > I guess the other issue occurs if the fans don't appreciate the strategy footballing wise.  Let's say both Sullivan and whatever DOF agreed that Moyes footballing philosophy was the right way forward because it won a trophy.  Then you would be bringing managers in who play the same way.

Correct...but that's the job then of the fans to apply pressure to the owners to change the longer term strategy (as happened with Moyes).

The only part of football the board should be involved with are the DoF and setting long term goals and strategy. He runs the football operation in the same way they leave Brady to run the Commercial operation. 

They should remain high level and away from all decision making at the lower level.

Clearly this is non-functional at West Ham with Sullivan wanting to pick managers, players etc.  

You need more board members like Kretinsky...they have high level interest, but leave the football up to the football people...it's increasingly clear it's why Steidten was appointed...to be Kretinsky's 'football man' as he doesn't trust Sullivan. Brady shouldn't be in the football decisions either....her job is to generate revenue, not bring in her husband's mates.

To be clear Steidten has never had this level of authority before so he's new to this gig. He's a talent spotter historically. Hence the name 'pearl diver'. And that's not an exact science. But the main point is the model at West Ham isn't properly implemented. And whilst that's the case, Sullivan will keep lurching from out for work manager to out of work manager, with no continuity, being driven by the whims of the agents who have him round their little finger, and stopping the club from progressing.

Sullivan is the root cause problem, and it would appear until the Grim Reaper can get involved, we're stuck with that problem.

​​​​

[zico]

Stubbo > I guess the other issue occurs if the fans don't appreciate the strategy footballing wise.  Let's say both Sullivan and whatever DOF agreed that Moyes footballing philosophy was the right way forward because it won a trophy.  Then you would be bringing managers in who play the same way.

[Fauxstralian]

The theory is that the DoF sets out the strategy of the club and picks the manager 
Obviously you’d think that would be someone on the same page that he can work with 
Enter D Sullivan to fuck things up
Owners should appoint football people and let them do their job

Expect Potter & Steidten are closer than the odd couple Steidten & Moyes (or Loppy) but wouldn’t be surprised if the ownership bin Tim to load all the blame on him for the current situation 

[stubbo]

Not that it particularly matters but I noted that Steidten didn't have much of a career in playing football.  48 appearances and one goal in a careeer lasting 12 years, as a defensive midfielder.  Maybe he could do a job in there now!

I'm a bit old school about this.  I certainly do not see any point in a DOF who brings in players that a manager doesn't fancy or want, especially if that player doesn't fit into the managers philosophy and system.  Lop's idea of football on the front foot, with a neat passing game, great in theory but we ended up with a bunch of slow players who on the whole can't pass a football.

A manager should live or die by his signings, or at least that's what we used to say, not on someone elses signings.  So any relationship between a manager and DOF should be a good one.  I can see the idea that the DOF will be there longer than a manager so the board should appoint a DOF but who chooses the playing style and club philosophy?  The board?  the DOF?  or does that change with each manager?  

The Board should set a long term strategy and bring in the DoF to implement it. The DoF then hires coaches that fit the long term strategy to work towards in the short to medium term (most managers are a 2-3 year cycle afterall). Players should be bought that align to the Strategy (whether footballing, revenue or otherwise). By having the DoF control the strategy implementation, it's the managers gig to align to the DoF's direction and strategy. Which is why he picks the manager.

If the board hire the manager, the DoF is a glorified head scout and the ability to be consistent when managers change without wholesale squad changes is lost (which is the whole point, and what is unsustainable about the old model).

The whole point of having a DoF is delivery of an overarching football strategy that persists from manager to manager, and the selection of managers that align to that strategy so you don't have massive squad overhauls as a manager changes, but continue to build towards a persistent common objective.

None of this can happen at West Ham whilst Sullivan remains in charge day to day.
​​​​

[zico]

Not that it particularly matters but I noted that Steidten didn't have much of a career in playing football.  48 appearances and one goal in a careeer lasting 12 years, as a defensive midfielder.  Maybe he could do a job in there now!

I'm a bit old school about this.  I certainly do not see any point in a DOF who brings in players that a manager doesn't fancy or want, especially if that player doesn't fit into the managers philosophy and system.  Lop's idea of football on the front foot, with a neat passing game, great in theory but we ended up with a bunch of slow players who on the whole can't pass a football.

A manager should live or die by his signings, or at least that's what we used to say, not on someone elses signings.  So any relationship between a manager and DOF should be a good one.  I can see the idea that the DOF will be there longer than a manager so the board should appoint a DOF but who chooses the playing style and club philosophy?  The board?  the DOF?  or does that change with each manager?  

[El Scorchio]

The point is that the Director of Football hires a manager who he's aligned with, and shares the same vision of how the team should play, etc. If the Director of Football is buying a load of players that the manager doesn't want then clearly either he's buying the wrong players or he hired the wrong manager and needs to replace him. Either way, the responsibility lies with him, and he might need sacking himself.

You don't do it that way, you get what we've been having for years: no vision, no plan, no structure. Just to-ing and fro-ing between completely different managerial styles and being stuck with players on the wage bill who don't fit the new system.

The point is that the idiot owner shouldn’t hire a technical director or someone to run the footballing affairs, and then immediately cut his nuts off by going over his head and hiring a manager he clearly didn’t want to work with, not to mention with buying players as well. It all stems from Sullivan not being able to keep his fucking beak out. If you’re having a DOF/TD/whatever, then you stick your nose out trust their judgement and leave them to do the job they are employed to do. Otherwise just don’t employ one in the first place. 

[Lee Trundle]

He also seems obsessed with the celebrity of it all.

 

Yeah, he loves a bit of SOCIAL MEDIA.  A bit too much for my liking also.

[stubbo]

Totally agree. The hierarchy should be:

Board

DOF/Technical Director

Manager and Staff

Players 

DOF chooses a manager to fit the vision for the club. DOF establishes a recruitment team to find players for the club. Manager works with DOF to assess the squad and agree on player target profiles. Recruitment teams being possible targets to DOF to evaluate. DOF look at options with manager to agree priority targets. Manager offers opinions and then DOF recruits with recruitment team.

Board evaluate performance of DOF over the medium term.

DOF makes hiring/firing decisions on head coach.

At the moment we have a board that wants to get involved in football decisions and own the football vision as well as the head coach selection, no clear owner of players coming in, and no alignment across levels. Even the board themselves don't seem aligned.

Our Technical Director and Head Coach appear to both report into the Board.

Structurally its a fucking mess. No great surprise as Sullivan is a shambles of an owner.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

The point is that the Director of Football hires a manager who he's aligned with, and shares the same vision of how the team should play, etc. If the Director of Football is buying a load of players that the manager doesn't want then clearly either he's buying the wrong players or he hired the wrong manager and needs to replace him. Either way, the responsibility lies with him, and he might need sacking himself.

You don't do it that way, you get what we've been having for years: no vision, no plan, no structure. Just to-ing and fro-ing between completely different managerial styles and being stuck with players on the wage bill who don't fit the new system.

[southbankbornnbred]

Gut feeling is that Potter will want somebody else to do Steidten’s job. Somebody more aligned with the manager (and vice-versa), as was the case in Brighton.

I’d be happier with that, too. If a club is going to make the tech director role work, then there has to be a good alignment with the manager. Or it’s all just so disjointed.

Sulli - the biggest hurdle of them all - is another matter. But he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

The manager shouldn't be the one deciding on who the DoF is. We had that with Pellegrini. The way it should be is that the DoF makes ALL the recruitment decisions, players and coaching staff. That's the only way a club can have a long term vision and plan, because we all know managers don't last long in any job.

Personally I don't think Steidten was qualified for the DoF job, but seeing as he's not being allowed to do that job anyway, who can tell if he's up to it or not?

But the arse end of that equation - which proponents never want to talk about - is that if you give the DoF too much control, you end up with almost no alignment between the signings etc and the manager.

And, frankly, the manager remains the most important person in that equation - whether people like it or not. He has to coach, manage, pick and work with the players every day. Day in, day out. Week in, week out. The technical director does not.

If a DoF is spending expensively on a load of players the manager doesn’t want or rate, then the team is fucked. There’s no escaping that.

It’s why I’m not really a huge fan of the DoF role unless it’s much more aligned with the approach of the manager. There has to be a common purpose, or you end up with a disjointed mess. And lo and behold, what do we have at the moment..?

Of course, the ideal way to make it work is to have owners and a board who understand the requirement for that alignment and balance. Instead, we have an owner who - in his own way - is a third power base in that equation and who (through his personal network,  Silkman etc) sometimes does his own thing.

This is why we’re a terribly run club: there is very little real co-ordination or vision. We’ve basically had three power bases pulling in different directions. Hence, the mess of this squad.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Gut feeling is that Potter will want somebody else to do Steidten’s job. Somebody more aligned with the manager (and vice-versa), as was the case in Brighton.

I’d be happier with that, too. If a club is going to make the tech director role work, then there has to be a good alignment with the manager. Or it’s all just so disjointed.

Sulli - the biggest hurdle of them all - is another matter. But he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

 

 

The manager shouldn't be the one deciding on who the DoF is. We had that with Pellegrini. The way it should be is that the DoF makes ALL the recruitment decisions, players and coaching staff. That's the only way a club can have a long term vision and plan, because we all know managers don't last long in any job.

Personally I don't think Steidten was qualified for the DoF job, but seeing as he's not being allowed to do that job anyway, who can tell if he's up to it or not?

[onsideman]

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

It's not only this hindsight one though, is it?
Plenty on here said it at the time
Get rid of Ings, then yeah - in the conversation 
Look for a young, strong, fast attacker and then buy Fullkrug to add to our ageing and expensive front line, then a big old no
Dortmund were very happy to get rid. I'm not sure why there's even an argument

You and I might have preferred a young, strong, fast attacker, but was that Steidten's remit? Or was he supposed to go out and get a quality striker that fit in with the new manager's usual style of play, someone to replicate the success he had with En-Nesyri, who is a very similar player.

Similar... just the best part of 5 years younger

Felt like a very lazy piece of work to me but wtfdik?

[southbankbornnbred]

Gut feeling is that Potter will want somebody else to do Steidten’s job. Somebody more aligned with the manager (and vice-versa), as was the case in Brighton.

I’d be happier with that, too. If a club is going to make the tech director role work, then there has to be a good alignment with the manager. Or it’s all just so disjointed.

Sulli - the biggest hurdle of them all - is another matter. But he’s not going anywhere anytime soon.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

 

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

It's not only this hindsight one though, is it?
Plenty on here said it at the time
Get rid of Ings, then yeah - in the conversation 
Look for a young, strong, fast attacker and then buy Fullkrug to add to our ageing and expensive front line, then a big old no
Dortmund were very happy to get rid. I'm not sure why there's even an argument

You and I might have preferred a young, strong, fast attacker, but was that Steidten's remit? Or was he supposed to go out and get a quality striker that fit in with the new manager's usual style of play, someone to replicate the success he had with En-Nesyri, who is a very similar player.

[onsideman]

Fullkrug wasn't the only option available in world football once the Duran door had closed. He shouldn't even have been in the conversation - even less so if your job is to unearth talent outside of that you can find on Football Manager

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

It's not only this hindsight one though, is it?
Plenty on here said it at the time
Get rid of Ings, then yeah - in the conversation 
Look for a young, strong, fast attacker and then buy Fullkrug to add to our ageing and expensive front line, then a big old no
Dortmund were very happy to get rid. I'm not sure why there's even an argument

[Mex Martillo]

I'm ok with Steidten, hope he stays. On the balance his signing have been more good than bad.
I dislike out threads as by posting you maintain a negative thread on the board. More constructive to have a neutral title.

[southbankbornnbred]

Can’t say I’ve been at all impressed with Steidten since he joined.

He’s helped sign many absolute howlers. And, as I’ve said before, IF people point to the “but he only signed x, while Sulli signed y and Lope signed z” then that ain’t a structure that’s co-ordinated or working to the benefit of the club or team. So you have to ask what’s the point in this fella?

He also seems obsessed with the celebrity of it all.

Let’s see how this window goes, as it would be odd to push him out now. But the focus should be on unpicking a mess partly of his own making. If he can’t, or won’t, then let him go in the summer.

[Jean-Luc Paul Goddard]

Fullkrug wasn't the only option available in world football once the Duran door had closed. He shouldn't even have been in the conversation - even less so if your job is to unearth talent outside of that you can find on Football Manager

 

 

We're talking about a player whose last few games were in the Champions League Final and in the Euros for Germany, one who thrives on crosses when we've just brought in a manager who historically used crosses as the main method of attack. That guy should most definitely be in the conversation, although perhaps not in this hindsight one. It's silly to expect a DoF to be only looking for hidden gems.

[Manuel]

It's a real pity about Fullkrug, yes maybe overpriced, but there's a player there who seems to be respected as a no 9 within football.

[stubbo]

As a replacement if we'd outed someone, maybe, but absolutely no way should we have been shopping for a 31 year old to supplement the 34 year old Antonio and the 32 year old Ings. It's bonkers.

We weren't. We were shopping for Duran, but Sullivan pulled the funds when the price went up (after Villa had cleared their PSR issues with the same of Luiz and the winger to the Saudis).

Come on stubbo... Fullkrug wasn't the only option available in world football once the Duran door had closed. He shouldn't even have been in the conversation - even less so if your job is to unearth talent outside of that you can find on Football Manager

I agree and it's the transfer we can most judge his transfer dealings on from an identification perspective. But I also think he's a good player who will score goals for us, and we've been unlucky with his injuries. 

I mean it's not like he doesn't have a medical. They screened him and signed off on his fitness. My only issue with his signing is the fee is too high (and even that I believe has been misreported and is actually nearer to 20m with 7m in add ons).

[onsideman]

Surely we can all see Fullkrug was a panic buy when Sullivan wouldn't give him the money to close the Duran deal, which was where all the effort had gone?

It was late in the window, we needed a striker across the line, Fullkrug's injury record had been good for the last two seasons, and he knew the player and his personality.  In fairness the only issue with Fullkrug at West Ham has been his fitness. When he's played he's looked an intelligent footballer who knows his strengths and how to use them.

Since a calf injury in 20/21 season he's only missed about 16 games and all we're short absences, so whilst he's had lots of niggle injuries over his career, post 20/21, he's been pretty solid. We've been unlucky.

The only issue I can see with us having. Bought Fullkrug was the amount of money he cost. The player is a decent one, his recent injury record wasn't scary, and by all accounts he's a good voice in the dressing room too.

The fuck up was Duran which was partly on Steidten, but heavily on Sullivan too who got jittery once the cost went up to 40m.

As a replacement if we'd outed someone, maybe, but absolutely no way should we have been shopping for a 31 year old to supplement the 34 year old Antonio and the 32 year old Ings. It's bonkers.

We weren't. We were shopping for Duran, but Sullivan pulled the funds when the price went up (after Villa had cleared their PSR issues with the same of Luiz and the winger to the Saudis).

Come on stubbo... Fullkrug wasn't the only option available in world football once the Duran door had closed. He shouldn't even have been in the conversation - even less so if your job is to unearth talent outside of that you can find on Football Manager

[stubbo]

Surely we can all see Fullkrug was a panic buy when Sullivan wouldn't give him the money to close the Duran deal, which was where all the effort had gone?

It was late in the window, we needed a striker across the line, Fullkrug's injury record had been good for the last two seasons, and he knew the player and his personality.  In fairness the only issue with Fullkrug at West Ham has been his fitness. When he's played he's looked an intelligent footballer who knows his strengths and how to use them.

Since a calf injury in 20/21 season he's only missed about 16 games and all we're short absences, so whilst he's had lots of niggle injuries over his career, post 20/21, he's been pretty solid. We've been unlucky.

The only issue I can see with us having. Bought Fullkrug was the amount of money he cost. The player is a decent one, his recent injury record wasn't scary, and by all accounts he's a good voice in the dressing room too.

The fuck up was Duran which was partly on Steidten, but heavily on Sullivan too who got jittery once the cost went up to 40m.

As a replacement if we'd outed someone, maybe, but absolutely no way should we have been shopping for a 31 year old to supplement the 34 year old Antonio and the 32 year old Ings. It's bonkers.

We weren't. We were shopping for Duran, but Sullivan pulled the funds when the price went up (after Villa had cleared their PSR issues with the same of Luiz and the winger to the Saudis).

[stubbo]

I get that MO - and he was nowhere near Soler and the hapless Rodriguez - however I actually think it's fair and reasonable to make an assessment on the basis of Alvarez, Mavropanos and Fullkrug alone. 

 

 

Alvarez...identified by Noble actually (as Kudus). He just closed the deal.

Mavropanos...agreed, but if you look at his numbers, he was a good fit for Moyes....dominant in the air, pretty good as a backs to the walls type defender....and he was brought in for and became first choice under Moyes. One of the best aerial defenders in the league. Not saying he's what we need, but under Moyes he was viable (especially as the 3rd/4th choice he was bright in as on the cheap).

Fullkrug...given my view on this below. Value aside, think we've been unlucky and he's a good player.

Guilherme...need to know the fee structure to really evaluate this one, but he's 4(!) years younger than Summerville. Can't really assess for another 2 seasons properly, and it all comes down to how much did we have to pay up front and how much is performance/achievement related?

Todibo...juries out...has looked ok, but Lopetegui played him when injured and had a huge bust up. 

Soler....got the deal done, but identified and pushed for by JL.

Rodriguez...Steidten said he didn't think was up to it, JL wanted to push, and the other targets (Alexis and Kante) couldn't get done, so he was a freebie punt in a current Argie international.

AWB...Salthouse special by Sullivan

Kudus...identified by Noble, closed by Steidten

Summerville...Sullivan special.

Foderingham...no idea, but doing what he brought in for (training ground keeper)

Kilman...pushed for by JL...closed by Steidten.


That's the context behind the players that have arrived on his watch. Only 3 of the signings have been identified by Steidten out of 12. He's proven he's a very good deal closer and gets them over the line. 

He also didn't want JLo, pushed Amorim and Hurzeler. And from what it sounds like he's liked by the players, who trust him to take issues too, and that JLo was a shit show. Of course he fell out with Moyes...was anathema to the way Moyes wants to run a club, they knew Moyes was leaving and were looking for replacements (his job) which would have been under board direction.

If he'd had actual control over signings in the last window instead of the committee hybrid bullshit Sullivan has brought in, then we could judge better, but he hasn't.  I'd say he's too in the limelight and too leaky, but with the context of our club that's nothing new and it's often a dog eat dog place (with Sullivan the most snide and leaky of all of them...openly so).

But the best think Steidten does, is he can sell a vision to a player and get a deal over the line. Something Sullivan is hopeless at generally. And even for that alone he's worth having at the club.

[onsideman]

Surely we can all see Fullkrug was a panic buy when Sullivan wouldn't give him the money to close the Duran deal, which was where all the effort had gone?

It was late in the window, we needed a striker across the line, Fullkrug's injury record had been good for the last two seasons, and he knew the player and his personality.  In fairness the only issue with Fullkrug at West Ham has been his fitness. When he's played he's looked an intelligent footballer who knows his strengths and how to use them.

Since a calf injury in 20/21 season he's only missed about 16 games and all we're short absences, so whilst he's had lots of niggle injuries over his career, post 20/21, he's been pretty solid. We've been unlucky.

The only issue I can see with us having. Bought Fullkrug was the amount of money he cost. The player is a decent one, his recent injury record wasn't scary, and by all accounts he's a good voice in the dressing room too.

The fuck up was Duran which was partly on Steidten, but heavily on Sullivan too who got jittery once the cost went up to 40m.

As a replacement if we'd outed someone, maybe, but absolutely no way should we have been shopping for a 31 year old to supplement the 34 year old Antonio and the 32 year old Ings. It's bonkers.